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I think DCI is doing just fine

This whole thing sounds like the Socialist Drum Corps Association or something. I don't know what you are suggesting from this post. Should we take from those that have excelled merely for the benefit of those that have not just because we think it is unfair? Should we penalize the organizations that have made wise choices consistently over many years because of some perceived unfair advantage over those that haven't? To put it another way, should we spot weak sports teams a certain number of runs/points when they are playing better teams just to "even the playing field"? Come on people, this is, like it or not, a competitive arena. We can like or dislike the results of any given contest but what the statistics stated in the original post tell me is that, year in and year out, there is a percentage of organizations that find a way to be at the very forefront of design and performance. There is also a percentage that, year in and year out, don't. That my friends is life. Don't mean to sound uncaring or unfeeling (I guess I sound like a conservative!). It is what it is. We all have our favorites and we are disappointed when they don't succeed. Believe me, I can relate. I have been a Buffalo Bills fan for 40 years! That being said we can't boost our favorite by somehow willing it to be different. Until the Bills find a way to compete, they are doomed to where they are. Just sayin' Dan

George Hopkins...

And here I was, thinking that my Cadevaliers creation was about to fall victim to amnesia and/ or neglect. DCI changes fresh blood Champions less than Bill Belichick changes hoodies. For an activity that allegedly is filled with people who like " change" there is less " change" in placements as Champions of. DCI than in any other sport or competitive endeavor in the entire world .My guess,nobody here could name any other competitive sport or endeavor in the world that has had less numbers of new Champions crowned in its sport the last 35 years. I don't see that changing much over the next 35 years either, as the conditions and environment for such change are not present as near as I can tell . So it is what it is, and that's that.

I'd find it inconceivable if this has not been previously discussed over the years, and I admit that it has been months since I've even bothered to check in on DCP. I'm just curious on how this topic will play this time around. The topic/issue/facts... 42 years of DCI In those 42 years, 9 separate corps have been crowned champion (at the highest competitive level) Of those 9 separate corps, 5 have won the title 2 times or less, accounting for 7 of the 42 years, which means that... For 35 years, 4 corps have been trading the DCI Founders Trophy Even among those 4 corps, the trophy trading is wildly imbalanced The point... From a raw numbers standpoint, if you isolate 7 calendar years from DCI's 42-year history, and isolate only 5 corps to trade the championship title 2 times or less over those 7 years, one can reasonably describe DCI as being a competitive circuit where its champions have a likely chance of emerging from anywhere within the competitive ranks. Not bad, but also not reality. Conversely, (from a raw numbers standpoint) if you pull out 35 calendar years from DCI's 42-year history, and select 4 separate corps to trade the title 3 or more times over those 35 years, one can reasonably describe DCI as being a competitive circuit where its champions have a likely chance of emerging from primarily 4 organizations within the competitive ranks. Terrible on many levels, and an unfortunate reality check. This clearly contrasting disparity is even more shocking if one considers the sheer number of corps that have competed for that trophy for over four decades. 42 years ??? # of competitors 9 winners The questions... What does this reality in raw numbers reasonably say about DCI as a competitive circuit? Should DCI even be concerned about this? What, if anything, should DCI do about this? It would be nice if this discussion would focus solely on DCI as a 42-year old competitive circuit (meaning an entity that operates, in part, with an objective of facilitating a series of ticketed competitions employing a credible mechanism to crown a single champion from among a variety of performing groups, worthy of "world class" designation), and not on Adjudication Issues; individual Corps; Executive, Design, or Instructional Personnel; Artistic or Competitive Design Aspects; or Cultural, Social, or Economic Issues that impact virtually every facet of society. More succinctly... Is it reasonable to associate DCI as a legitimate competitive circuit (a.k.a. Marching Music's Major League) where a champion is determined by means of a valid, reliable system (conceptually akin to the likes of a champion as understood within other major league competitive activities or events), or is DCI an unsustainable, quasi-competitive, mostly minor league model that has (to its own demise) failed to effectively address parity among its ranks as a fundamental aspect of organizational credibility, structure and strength? This entire topic always comes to my mind as those attending the DCI annual meetings gather year after year. What do these people discuss? It's pretty obvious that this topic isn't on the agenda... again.

http://chattanooga.craigslist.org/edu/4866824831.html

...,,.. Oh, I don't know, but 7 corps come to mind that one could say from time to time might need to " be reminded of this fact" .

O.K....then let me ask a stupid question: If the nature of the "circuit" is NOT, and never has been, to produce a competition.." -- then why does DCI insist upon a philosophy of "placement" in its group "performances"?

As always, verty pertinent points from you, Guard. Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but I think all of this (and the answer to many other questions, whether in regards to Drum Corps OR any other competitive activity) can be arrived at through two very common words, comprising an even more common phrase: Human Nature.

And speaking of Captain & Tennille...word has it that she told him (and this is ALLEGEDLY verbatim) "I'm On My Way"...gonna "Shop Around"...'cause I just can't put up with one more "Lonely Night." (All said, supposedly, while listening to Donna Sommers' "Last Dance" and The 5th Dimensions' "Wedding Bell Blues.")

As a comparison - 49 years of Super Bowls. 19 different champions. the most recent 42 years of World Series 20 different champions. Yeah, I'd say DCI has a "staleness" problem. To me it's more like a figure skating championship, where there are favorites going in who will always get the benefit of the doubt. But, I have the performances I like, and it doesn't really matter to me anymore if they came in first or tenth.

I can answer your first question. Yes, this has been discussed here before. That competition has stagnated. I think so. DCI is in the business of selling competitive events. If the events are not truly competitive, they do not sell as well. That is where it gets sticky. You mention the key word below - parity. That is a dirty word in some circles. There will be considerable debate over what steps, if any, DCI should take to foster competitive parity. I would hope, though, that we could at least gain a reasonable consensus among us bystanders that DCI should not be adding to the disparity. That is not a valid either/or. For instance, an entity can be quasi-competitive, minor league and disparate, yet still be sustainable. In any case, there is not much hope of groundbreaking progress on this front. Back in the day, top corps threatened to break away and boycott major drum corps institutions like VFW, American Legion, World Open, and so on if they did not get their way... much like the prevailing threat of the G7 today. (And as we know, BITD they were not bluffing.) DCI was created by top corps, for top corps. It is in their mission statement. If we want a "major league" drum corps operation, one that is dedicated to a major league sized roster of corps like the 32 team NFL, it would most likely require redefinition of the mission.

I voted Star 93, but only because I listen to it more often. I also love Madison 88. As many before me have said, apples and oranges. Star 93 was groundbreaking, with lots of body movement, silence, and finesse. Madison 88 was loud, proud, face-melting awesome. The drum corps activity needs both, or else it would be a boring grey mush of sameness.

for uniqueness and controversy, Star pales to the Bridgemen in this aspect of" uniqueness" and in " controversy" . The Bridgenen took the whole suburban ethos thing in DCI at the time and turned it on its head. Star's uniforms in 93 were very conservative . Bridgemen were like nothing else with their uniforms, nor with even the way they entered the stadium. They were incredibly revolutionary in "uniqueness" for their time, They did not exude a military presence or demeanor at all. By choice . They were met in some environs in a very hostile fashion .,, especially away from the East Coast . The corps was chock full of minorities in its Corps , unlike Star ( and many other DCI top corps )that had few if any minorities in its Corps. The music by Bridgemen was drawn of inspiration from the sounds of the inner city.,. Unlike anything else that was being played at the time which at the time was filled with compositions from White European composers , If the topic is" uniqueness " the Bridgemen were unlike any other corps of its day at that time , in my personal assessment

. I suppose it naturally depends on what one's definition of " a prop " is. I personally don 't consider the 93 Star show as using a "prop" as the Guard showed us how talented they were by all using the same uniform equipment that they used in the show in a spinning and tossing fashion .If some adult lugs or drives something out on the field, that' won't fit comfortably into my Lanai, that's my personal definition of a " prop' . There were no large stationary stages, boxes, trampolines, ramps, and other large stuff like that . No narration, no megaphones, no signage, no lecturing us , gimmickry , no need for amplification, etc .,.. It was a compelling show that has resonated today with the newer younger fans ... and has done so without any of the props we see out there now on the field. . 20 years later and it's more compelling than ever a show. That's pretty cool to see how much the newer fans like a show from over 20 years ago that communicates so well and without needing much of anything but brass and percussion and some creative guard work to be so iconic and compelling a show performance. Sure, it did not win with the judges, but few care about that aspect, and that makes this even more compelling as few of the newer fans don't let that stand in their way of their enjoyment of it . That's a pretty cool and uplifting thing to know about this 1993 show performance too, imo .

I think this comes from the percussion ensemble as a whole was written in a way that not only featured them in a quality way, but was also performed at a high level. The Rennick's put lots of notes when it was appropriate, and didn't try to be flashy when it wouldn't have made musical sense. It was intelligent writing, performed by wonderful musicians. At least, that's why I feel it is regarded so highly.

Something I unfortunately never got to do with the Kilties: I always wanted to spraypaint the bells blue after prelims. So when the horns came up at finals, there would be the Blue Bells of Scotland.

Actually, because of instrument issues, we have people in G, B Flat and F. Run what you brung and we'll figure out how to tune the suckers. We do have several people coming day of the concert to rehearse then do the gig, music is posted online.

Actually, what my chart shows is that 7 of the 10 years with the least change in placement were in the past decade: 2010 1.70 2005 1.71 2006 1.83 1998 1.92 1984 2.00 2003 2.00 2004 2.00 2011 2.00 2012 2.00 1988 2.04 1992 2.12

What about people who go from a top corps to a lower placing corps. Yes it happens. People go, come back, Fill holes, didn't like their experience, you name it. Not everyone changes corps because a corps places better. Personally I think the whole idea about this extra fee for switching corps is really stupid anyway... to be blunt.

I'm 99.9% sure that doesn't happen now. What typically happens is either: 1) corps buys instruments from company at a discount. When a corps decides to get new equipment they sell old instruments to get money to buy new ones 2) instrument company "loans" equipment to a corps for a year or two. Corps uses instruments at no cost to them. Instrument company sells the instruments used through a dealer, usually in conjunction with the corps (for example, it's obviously in everyone's best interests that the instruments sell, so Cadets will advertise "percussion equipment for sale" just as Yamaha will advertise "percussion equipment for sale"). I'm pretty sure nobody gets 'free' equipment and then sells it for profit (that is actually specifically against an artist's endorsement contract)

Can we get one thing straight? Corps do not raid other corps for kids. Those kids are rational consumers who have free will and find that they maximize their utility in another corps. The main competition is not on the field. It's in November when corps sell their product. THAT influences the success of the corps more than anything.

You do not need endorsement and money to win. Don't me such a ######. How many championships did Cadets win with a mishmashed McGyvered hornline? You ever see those things up close? Absolutely junk... but some how they got genius out of them. The problem ain't never the horn... but always the player. On top of that, back in my day... we called them Cadets of Bergen Belsen... as they did seem a bit calorically challenged. And yet, they still kicked our #####. You don't need money to win. You need to know how to win to win. Cadets, for example, used to have what I would call brute force wins. They just went for it like a mad man. These brute force wins allowed some support in later years (Bb change was 20 years too late, btw) which has transformed their approach to winning as certainly much smarter and more focused than brute force. Add to this that the management team and design team have matured over the years, creating a much more sustainable approach. Anyway, it is certainly possible for another scrappy org to come out and create a brute force win. The problem is actually in the way that design works these days. Now it has evolved into something a bit too formulaic. This prevents young designers from really breaking out. Combine this with the current sort of apprenticeship model for design training... and it isn't really possible for young designers to shake things up in the way they used to. This is unfortunate... there really needs to be emphasis placed on developing the next generation of creative talent.

Riddle me this... How is limiting the spending power of corps that have their #### together going to cause other poorly run orgs to magically figure out how to make (and properly spend) more money? The problem is not the corps that have their #### together.... it is the corps that don't have their #### together spending like they're ghetto rich.

I've often thought this idea is a good one, but never was brave enough to post it.

Most WC corps such as Crossmen, especially those with a rich history, also rely on donations from Alumni and can expect a larger revenue from the Souvenir Booth. The larger, more popular, and more historical the corps is, the more places money pours in from. I would also assume that WC corps don't allow members to march without paying tour fees, as Revolution clearly did. I would guess the $2400 that Revolution is looking for is meant to help compensate for those who don't pay. Doesn't really sound fair. If I worked all year to scrounge up enough pennies in my piggy bank for myself, I would want them to pay for me--not for me AND someone else. The Blue Devils' website states "Your financial obligation to the Blue Devils for the 2012 season will be approximately $1,500.00 - $2,200.00." They certainly do an extensive tour as well, but I would bet they receive tons of funds from Alumni, family, fans, and souvenirs.

True story.......The Glassmen came in 5th place at the first Class A DCI Finals in 1975....After Finals our Corps Dir. Left to go back home because he was very, very sick....He only stayed as long as he did because he wanted to see us through Finals at serious risk to his health......After he went home the rest of the staff left except one....He was a 22 year old equipment manager....He was given $500.00 to get us home from Philly to Toledo....This money was for gas only....Back in the day for the most part we had to find ways to feed ourselves......While standing in line to check out of the Motel room he over heard some staff members from SCV talking about how one of their buses broke down and how were they going to get some of the kids back to Caliy.....Without batting an eye he told them they could ride with us back home and then take them Chicago where they could catch a flight home, the offer was accepted.....So now he had the added responsibility of not only getting us home but now members from another Corps....Our yellow buses made it to home and Chicago...On the way back from Chicago our yellow school buses broke down.....Without being asked the SCV BoD sent money to help cover the cost... 75 was the first year the Glassmen had an extended tour...Up until that point we were for the most part a weekend only Corps....We took off on a 2 week tour and did not fully recover.....We were getting down the road on our placement money...BITD one was not guaranteed any money......It all depended on where the Corps finished....No matter who was at the Show..... In 1976 we tried to field a Corps but it did not work out....I found out 30 years latter one of the main reasons was financial.......93% give or take of the Corps members did not pay their dues and it was $75.00 a year, we had 110 members.....And our bingo game was getting ripped off......Soooooo, the Glassmen had no choice but to go inactive....In 79 a group of Alumni, parents, and friends of the Glassmen got together and decided to bring back the Glassmen.....The first thing they did was to get their financial house in order....Then they put out word for those who were still able to march and those who have not marched before to come back....The rest as they say is history... Maybe just maybe Revo needs to take a breath, relax and get their finical house in order for this great Corps to move forward..... If it takes a year or two so be it.....If history is any indication, once Revo comes back they will be as strong or stronger then they once were...... DRUMDAD..........You did nothing wrong in creating this thread...despite what some of the forum police would have you believe....(Forum Police-- those who have taken upon themselves to try and dictate what can and can not be posted)Trust me,If you would have the Mods would shut this thread down in a heart beat.....Thank you for not backing down even when they tried to get this thread shut down....

and now for something completely different -- You know, I've already stated my feelings on the subject a few pages ago on this thread. What's bumming me out now is that this is the biggest story thread in the Open Class forums this season. Not that it isn't big news, but, you know, there were a great deal of success stories this season as well as a very close battle between 3-4 very good drum corps. Rarely, if at all, were people in here discussing those topics. But now that there is a little bit of gossip, this place turns into Times Square. HAHA. Not a big deal, really. Just an observation. I hope some of you come back next season to discuss the positive side of Open Class! YAY, OPEN CLASS! Now, back to your regularly scheduled program.....

This was my first year as a drum corps dad, however I have been a band director for 25 years. You can bat this around all you want. The bottom line is that is always the kids that have to pay the price. I got to know quite a few of them and If I live to be 1000 I will never forget the look on the faces of those kids when they got off of the bus in Little Rock. I have had trips try to go sour. You find the quickest way to end on a positive note and get the kids home. When it's over then you can quit, fire, dissolve, or whatever. The final straw is that my daughter still has $175 in equipment that she spent her own money on that she never got. Also a tour jacket that she probably won't see. It always rolls down hill.

I fail to see what your experiences in 2002 and 2003 have to do with what happened at the end of the 2011season, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I have known John and Mike, and been a Revo parent, for four years (08,09,10,11). I have put in my time and more than my share of money, over those years. There have been many times, off and on this forum, when I have sung John and Mike's praises as well as those of Revolution. I've been in Michigan City and Indianapolis every one of those years... as I was this year. What I wrote in my original post actually happened. Regardless of "why" it happened, the fact that it happened in the manner that it did is unacceptable to me and MANY others who have spent a varying number of years as part of Revolution. Kudos to you for speaking your mind. More power to you.

It seems like a lot of money, but in the bigger picture it's chump change. Look at Revo's web site and they state "tuition" as $2400. That 11k was the equivalent of less than 5 corps members' fees. If you can't float 5 delinquent/late member fees, you probably shouldn't be on the road at all.

I have wanted to comment on this topic several times. However, I have held back. I was not in Indianapolis this weekend, so I could not see what took place. So I will not comment on those events; that would be nothing but hearsay. I will simply say this: It is irresponsible and unconscionable, for this amount of unpaid dues at the end of tour. $11,000 is a lot of money, for an open class corps. It may be chicken feed to a WC outfit, but to an OC outfit like Revo, it can be the difference towards financial survival. This amount should have been collected, before the members stepped on the bus, at the start of the tour. If it is not paid, then it threatens the ability of the entire corps to tour. Honestly, I would like to see Revo (and all corps, OC and WC) to implement a rule: if you do not pay your dues, by the end of move-in camp, you cannot tour. Period. Marching in drum corps is a priviledge, not a right. And if you do not pay your dues, you do not march. What happens if a rule like this is not established, and enforced? Someone else needs to pick up the tab. Or the corps runs out of money, and then no one gets paid. Or the tour gets cut short. Or the corps folds. Didn't DCI use to enforce a rule, that each new MM, at the start of the season, had to sign a paper, stating that a) they did not have a contract with another corps for that season, and b) they did not owe any outstanding funds to other corps? Wasn't this part of the standard documentation, that each new MM had to sign, along with the age verification? Or is this rule no longer enforced? (I remember signing something to that effect when I marched, but that was before cell phones....) Whoever did not pay these dues this year should not be allowed to march with Revo, or any other corps, until they make good on their debts. Honestly, this is where DCI itself would need to get involved. If someone marched with Revo last year, and didn't pay their bills, then shouldn't be able to just walk into Forte/Genesis/Crossmen next year, and pull the same stunt. Maybe these delinquent MMs should be "black-listed" by DCI for what they have done. That may sound harsh, but the line has has to be drawn somewhere. I do not want to see Revo, or an organization like Revo, fold. But unless these types of rules are established, and enforced, then that may be inevitable. And that really would be sad. This organization has done a lot to help young musicians in South Texas. I don't want to see that legacy come to an end.

I LOVED their music this year. The story elements however, not so much. They just didn't make sense. I was told (and that's the only reason I know) that the entire hornline was supposed to represent Romeo and the entire guard was supposed to represent Juliet. I was also told (by the same poster) that the hornline represented the Montagues and the Capulets battling. Hmmm? If they are all supposed to represent Romeo then this clearly makes no sense. Also, if the hornline represented Romeo, the ending REALLY makes no sense. All of a sudden, you have the drum major go out and die on the field. I guess now that HE'S supposed to represent Romeo? OK....He wasn't even the one that "Juliet" (one of them...) was dancing with (er...dancing with his helmet), that was one of the hornline members. None of this kept me from enjoying the heck out of this show. In fact, it's definitely one of my favorite shows of the year. However, if you're going to do a "story", PLEASE make sure that you tell a logical story and that everything is copacetic. Otherwise, you just confuse the viewer, taking them out of the moment. Just my two cents. Again, LOVED this show, but a little confused by how they went about telling the story. Oh, one last thing...WHY oh WHY did Tom Blair and co. decide to get a shot of Juliet's suicide from the WRONG SIDE? It completely ruins the effect. Sigh....

...if it's "true" it's not libel, Sam. cg

The fact that you claim "this stuff happens all the time" is even more troubling. It shows this corps (administration) doesn't have its act together.

The sad thing in my mind is that the organization as a whole is not that way, it's just some of the people running it obviously, maybe just 1 person or 2. I hope the corps as a whole survives, I really enjoyed the show in San Antonio. (FANTASTIC drum line) I hope that some sort of release is made to get 100% of the facts straight, so we know 100% for sure what happened. And from what I've read about Bryan Espenosa, he should be the director it sounds like, I couldn't imagine helping get that many kids home safely (I know how we kids that age can be like sometimes). That's a task worth getting some recognition for.

As a 3 year staff member I am embarrassed to be a part of this organization. I apologize to the parents, and the members. As the bass tech for my time at Rev I have made bonds with all the members and staff, and like Bryan was one of the staffs relaying messages to members and staff as well. I can't believe it ended this way and if the past weekend gets you sobbed up imagine being involved all summer. I love all the members who stuck it out and left I want you all to know that, if you don't already. Mike and John found away to make me forget all the great things about this season (5th in our class/4th in drums/ bass i&e champs), all down the drain and in my head. The last two weeks have been a emotional hell and I'm glad Bryan Espenosa got us back home safe.

I'm embarrassed to have been part of such a poorly run drum corps. John and Mike definitely abandoned us, and I can say everything that Mr. Delgado had posted is %100 accurate. Thank god for Bryan taking on the responsibility as tour manager/corps director upon the leave of John and Mike. Not only did he handle the situation exceptionally well, BUT HE MADE SURE EVERYONE RETURNED HOME SAFELY!!! Bryan, if you're reading this, know that we ALL appreciate your efforts in finding food and a way back home for each of us. Thank you for also disregarding Johns orders of leaving the percussion section to find our own rides. No guard tech should have to take on the responsibilities you took, but you did it because you truly care for each of us. Thank you. Being part of this organization for three years, I can honestly say that things have never gotten this bad (as a previous poster stated) This has financially been the worst season ever. Under armors, shoes, gloves, guard equipment, shorts, and other things were paid for in full by most members, yet they never received them. Not only that, but they haven't been credited or reimbursed for their purchases. Many guard and hornline members were unable to perform an I&E in indianapolis due to the bus problems. Many staff members, drivers, and the bus company either didn't receive payment on time, or didn't receive pay at all! There is so much more I want to write, but I'm sure other corps members have PLENTY to say on the subject. This was such a sad way to end an otherwise awesome season. -Corey Hinojosa 2009 bass 5 2010 bass 3 2011 bass 5

Anybody who would leave a kid in a parking lot 1000 miles from home for ANY reason is an incompetent manager, and arguably a criminal.

I don't trust this post, right up to the poor grammar. The line that really got me was the kids who are not loyal to perform can find their own way home seems fishy. You could use that as a threat to perform but any paying kid deserves the ride back especially given the communication issues. Why wasn't the bus company completely settled before the trip to Indy? Still unanswered questions here.

If you were to offer some sort of counseling service, I think you would do very well. In fact, if you were to ever produce a DVD or self-help guide book ("Clicking on Drum Corps Videos for Dummies?") I think I would be your first customer. Thank you. Because of your insightful wisdom, I feel better now. I'm no longer on the precipice of doom.

A huge part of drum corps is hearing brass and percussion interpret music that was never intended for those instruments. Hearing Gershwin's Concerto in F, third movement, on brass instruments was an EXHILERATING experience. It's even better for brass than it is for piano, and given current rules, we never would have known that!

If that's the kind of variety you want, go watch a movie, or TV, or a pop concert, or a rock concert, or a YT video, or just about ANY OTHER PLACE where music occurs in our society. The thing that made DCI special was that everything you heard, you knew was being produced right that second by amazing people. Electronics are nothing but a way to cheat. You hear a big horn hit, and you wonder if the corps produced it or if synths or amps "boosted" the sound. It cheapens the activity. As a side note, I would have had less of a problem with it (though it would still have been a distraction for me) if I knew that the singer on the recording was a marching member of the corps who was under the age of 21. As it stands, what's to keep a corps from wanting a "perfect trumpet solo" and hiring Wynton Marsalis (or any other professional, over-21, non-corps member) to record it instead of giving to someone on the field? I can't get past all the ways synths and amps can obscure the amazing feats these performers are accomplishing in every show. Why should we rob them of their glory like this?

Take all the electronics out from this year's show and there's a tremendous amount of variety. If you think shows before electronic were the "same programs over and over" then you're missing something very big. Personally I feel it mainly lets the designers and arrangers be lazy. How can we get this idea across, or how do we translate this sound from the original source music? Rather than having to be creative they can just throw in an audio clip or a sample.

Love the Cadets! This is the 27th year my wife and I have been Cadets fans; there have been some rough times for us Cadets fans in recent years. This one feels real good and was well worth the wait. I just had a feeling at the winter camps this year that there was something special brewing! Thanks to the DCI judging community for having the integrity and courage to recongnize the corps that clearly had the best package in 2011. Great job Cadets; can't wait to get the blu-ray's and my Cadets "10th" championship shirt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FHNSAB!

look...many people don't like domes. I know the storms caused a tragedy. Maybe we need outdoor venues where storms as big of an issue this time of year. face it.,...the dome is turning fans away. but thats why i said all domes aside.

Not to the PR fans. That's a symbol of 8th places and championships that never were.

It is not 'painted,' it is an actual inlaid piece of turf, and it is removable. It may not be real visible from the stands, but at field level you can definitely see the part that comes out and is replaced by the green 'non-logo'd' turf we see for the Championships.

text your choice... which judge gets "sticked" in the finale!

I have all three, but I also have a fourth...I'm in an active-duty US Army Band, and have been for six years.