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Bluecoats never seem to garner much attention, but I always love the sound of their hornlines. Almost switched corps after seeing them live in 2007 and 2008.

The incomparable Dave Brubeck passed this morning, just a few hours short of turning 92. His influence on drum corps is well documented, from Gerry Shelmer's Boston, Garfield and Sunriser solos to a more recent Blue Devils show. He was hip to drum corps, of course. He was hip to everything. His mother was a piano teacher in Concord and once, when he was recording for the Concord Jazz label, I got a chance to interview him. He was most complimentary about the way corps were approaching jazz. If I can locate the audio, I'll include it in a segment of "Off the Record". Dave Brubeck was a brilliant and gracious man. We are fortunate to have shared the planet with him.

Kind of like men not being allowed on the Olympics Women's Beach Volleyball team?

Yes!!! You and your mom are the typical, normal, average, DCI fans which make up an overwhelming portion of the DCI spectators; people who have had, or currently do have, direct association with DCI. Many of the rest of the DCI fans are those currently involved in hs marching bands who want to be involved with a DCI corps in the future. And that spectator 'demographic' difference is what separates the people who attend DCI events as opposed to those who attend major sporting events. Most who go see the Yankees play the Red Sox, or those who go see the Steelers play the Patriots have never been directly associated with the National Football League or the teams let alone played either baseball or football at any capacity. But, most of those who go to DCI or BOA do have a direct connection to DCI or BOA. For various reasons football and baseball appeal to those who have never played the game, but drum corps, for the most part, does not appeal to those who never performed in the marching arts. That factor is also one of the main reasons the spectator draw for the marching arts is so very small when compared to other major competitive activities like football and baseball.

Maybe they realize that the whole business model would collapse if only 7 cars were circling those tracks.

I've long been captivated by the refined power of Blue Knights' horn line, and on a different level, the raw emotion of Boston Crusaders' line.

Have two percussion judges. One for the front ensemble. One for the battery.

How about Academy. Nice, dark sound. Could be a dark horse in 2013 for top 12.

Thank you for this compliment! If anyone feels the need or interest to further explore their assumptions about us, do not hesitate to message me. I'm really proud of the financial accomplishments I/We have been able to achieve in the last 5 years.

So, let me get this straight... You applaud that there's more to the story besides a "cursory" look at the 990s, but you want my cursory overview on every corps in one, all-inclusive place? :blink:/> Did you read the very first post of this thread?

I'm not going to offer suggestions as to how the corps could have improved but I will say that I really enjoyed some of the non-finalists. Particularly Glassmen, The Academy, Oregon Crusaders (wow!), and Pacific Crest who was IMO the most underrated corps of 2012. And of course we can't forget Jersey Surf! Gotta love the team that says "To heck with scores and placements! Let's just do a show that will be a blast to perform and that the dinosaurs and bandos alike will love!" I really feel like everyone in DCI has stepped up their game over the last few years. There are corps finishing in the mid teens now that just a few years ago would have easily made finals.

I thought this year the 13th and lower place corps put on some amazing performances. As much as I loved 12th place Crossmen this year, I really thought Blue Stars should have had the last spot in finals. Either way with Crossmen or Blue Stars in 13th, I think their shows were both fantastic. When you add in crowd favorite Jersey Surf, along with Glassmen who I thought had one of their best shows ever(I enjoyed it more than even some of their 5th place shows over the years) Colts who had one of the best solos of the year, and other corps like Academy, Pacific Crest, Oregon Crusaders, and others, made this years non-finalists one of my favorite years ever. I even thought the bottom corps including Les Stentors and Blue Saints had very nice shows, even with the small amount of members. I couldn't believe how well the small corps Blue Saints were able to pull off The Canyon by Phillip Glass. I think even with fewer corps than ever before at finals week, this may have been the best year ever from top to bottom. In some years past, I think almost any one of the 13-17th placing corps could have made finals with their show. Regardless of scores or placements, I think this years 13-35th placing corps were awesome. I can't wait to see what happens next year. And I say this every year, but I would love to see more butts in the seats earlier in the day on Thursday of quarterfinals/prelims. I think a lot of people probably missed shows, that if they knew how good they were, would be kicking themselves.

I believe that Cadets 2000: "We are the Future", secretly subtitled 'A G1 Fantasia', was actually Hopkins first attempt at breaking away from the fold. The ballad you are referring to: "Money, Money, Money" was to have painted a beautiful and vivid picture of how this ridiculously outmoded youth activity could be replaced by staff buses with gold rims and million dollar whims. However, in late January of that year, he got a clandestine call from across the continent. No one knows exactly what was said during that conversation, but as urban legend has it, a young intern did overhear one short snippet before the door to Hopkins office was shut: "...Dude, ixnay on the oldgay imsray...". SLAM! How do I know?!?! I WAS THAT INTERN! ::Cue dramatic music:: End scene

The IRS form 990 is the tax return for non-profit organizations. As such, all of the financial data for DCI and each corps is exposed for all to see; 990's are open for public view because of the filer's tax exempt status. That is, if you can figure out how to read them because the forms are notoriously hard to read and decipher, especially for non-financial people. The financial stability of DCI and the individual corps is a hot topic in DCP-land. My hope is to present the finacial data here in little bites, giving plenty of room for discussion, in hopes that we all can become more familiar with the facts about the financial health of the activity. My method for studying the 990's is to analyze the trends over as many years as are available. Typically, there are three years of 990 data available and my goal is to spot the trends over time, subject to the 990 forms available. A word of caution: nothing that we can present here is a full explanation of the background story of the numbers; complete explanations are not part of the forms even though notes are an integral part of the form filings. It's just raw data - income, expenses, assets, and liablilites - it doesn't explain how the numbers came to be. As a result there will be a natural tendency to speculate on the reasons for the numbers - something that DCP'ers are very good at. But the real back story can only be explained by the financial people at DCI or the individual corps. Still, I've always believed that numbers can tell a story. My hope is that, by presenting the numbers here, that story will reveal itself to all of us. Disclaimer: While I work in the financial industry, this thread is not official in any capacity, and does not reflect the position or opinion of DCI, any corps, or my employer. All data comes directly from Form 990's found on www.guidestar.com, is presumed to be accurate but is not guaranteed to be so. All opinions expressed are mine, personally, are not audited, and are only based upon my amateur interpretation of the 990 forms. With all that in mind, here we go! Fun with numbers! EDIT: For those who may wish to skip to their favorite corps, I've added the following index of post numbers. First the corps name and then the post number where their 990 discussion begins: INDEX OF CORPS 990's (Name: Post number) DCI: 2 YEA!: 134 Blue Devils: 204 UPDATED 2011 NUMBERS ARE IN RED Cavaliers: 286 Carolina Crown: 367 Phantom Regiment: 437 Santa Clara Vanguard: 469 The Bluecoats: 525 Boston Crusaders: 576 Blue Knights: 603 Madison Scouts: 647 Blue Stars: 669 Spirit of Atlanta: Not available Consolidated Summary of Top-11 plus DCI: 724 The Glassmen: 739 The Troopers: 767 The Academy: 808 The Colts: 824 The Crossmen: 845 Pacific Crest: 869 The Mandarins: 891 The Cascades: 917 Jersey Surf: 957 Pioneer: 969 Consolidate Summary of All Corps: 994

12.15.12 and 12.16.12 Hawthorne Caballeros Camp Weekend First Camp of the 2013 Season! Brass & Percussion Hello Caballeros! Great reports from our Open House Weekend. Here are the details for our First Official Camp of the 2013 Season! Our rehearsal will be on Saturday, December 15th and Sunday, December 16th 2012 at North Warren Regional High School, 10 Noe Road in Blairstown NJ. (Click Here for Directions). This rehearsal is for Brass and Percussion. Keep checking our website, www.cabs.org for our next Guard Rehearsal. STILL LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO MARCH? The Hawthorne Caballeros welcome new members in all sections. All experience levels welcome and we hope you will join us this weekend in Blairstown, NJ. If you would like more information on membership, please contact Mike Ryan at m.ryan@cabs.org.

I guess I'm gonna hate, then. Mr's VanDoren, Rennick, Smith, Ebert, Bellamy, Whitlock and Ms Queen, as well as the rest of the new Troopers staff might suggest a trip to the optometrist. I dunno.

I agree that Hop is great with putting out information, and I love it. I kinda don't care what a corps plays, I just like to hear about the process. It is intensely interesting to hear what the concept is, and how it is manifested on the field. What a lot of people don't realize is that during critiques corps staffs educate the judges on what they are trying to portray. The next time the judges sees it, they can use that information. It is an ongoing process through out the season. Why wouldn't a corps want to educate the fans in the same manner? At least make the information available for those interested in searching it out? There are a few corps the don't post ANYTHING about the show, including the repertoire or general concept. I even talked to a director about this and he basically said he wanted to come out in July and surprise the audience and blow people away.....in reality it seemed like people didn't care....all season long (my take on it anyway). You don't need to spam everyone, or post every bit on nonsense in discussion forums. But if you put it "out there" the people that want it will find it. And by the way.....the big news here isn't the concept Hop is discussing.....it's the fact that they aren't having brass in Feb or March. They are basically setting the line in Jan and then picking up in April. I'm sure they will have drop outs (like usual) and fat kids show up in April (as usual), but maybe they can pull off missing a few camps with interaction via the interglobalweb for those "off" months. This is something I"m going to follow.

So...you want them to send *only* the emails you're interested in but refrain but sending those you *don't* want to read? Ooooookkkkk........ FWIW when there's an unsubscribe link, it's not really spam. And most of those emails link to articles on the yea.org. You could -- you know -- just browse the interwebs occasionally. In fact nearly every Cadets email seems to make it on DCP. So you could just read this forum and not miss anything. Can't believe people are complaining about a drum corps sending out too much info. Most drum corps are virtual black holes -- they release almost no information. I think what the Cadets do is absolutely amazing and I'm with the posters here who think they're way out in front of most other corps.

My favorites of the group: Blue Stars were my favorite out of the non finalist and most of the finalist shows lat year, maybe it's because I'm a die hard fan of them, but I loved the aggressiveness of it, got to be one of the best 13th place shows out there. Drumline was on fire. Glassmen has really grown on me lately, I'm not a big fan of some of their electronic effects they had or the ballad, but the "Organ Symphony closer is great. The Academy is another show that was in my favorites of last year, same as Blue Stars, I loved the aggressive approach to the show design, and had a very fitting soft ending. Pacific Crest, my favorite show from them, love the moment in the "True Colors" closer when they remove the white flag colors to show every color of the spectrum, great moment. Oregon's show is a great example of being able to make a bunch of music work. Show design was amazing, can't wait to see what they offer up this coming year. Jersey Surf, thanks for showing you don't have to be "one of the big dogs" to be appreciated.

Okay, then. Might I suggest that they engage the fans concerning Music in Motion, Inc., and the special show series featuring seven corps? As a fan of all these corps, I would like to know what show format we might see in 2013 for these events. I would also like to know about the business model pros and cons (pay for corps, cost for sponsors, prices for fans). And as a fan of the other corps not involved, I am curious about what direction these events and the Music in Motion, Inc. venture is taking. What is their vision for the future? How will this project affect corps that are not part of it? Will the Music in Motion, Inc. corps leave DCI, or participate in both? Thank you both, glory and charlie1223, for your wisdom. You have convinced me.

Def had to pick triple crown. It was my first dci show. For me everything was there. Still one of my favorite shows today.

I voted Rach Star. However, here's a number of other favorites. Check 'em out on the Fan Network: 1996 Chess - loved the visual of the large chess pieces on the field 2004 Bohemia - though I've never been a big fan of voice in shows, Crown did a great job of singing and other voices throughout their show. If you're looking for a good example of the use of voice in a show, check out '04 Crown (I have to mention Bluecoats 2008 for this catagory too) 2007 Triple Crown - this is the show that Crown captured my attention. I'd say '07 was a springboard year that catipulted Crown into the powerhouse they are today 2009 Grass is Always Greener - Wow. Seeing Crown in person for the first time blew me away. My favorite 2009 show in DCI - and I loved their uniforms and green plumes! 2011 Rach Star - Although it wasn't the best of the activity in 2011, RachStar was clearly a top-pleaser. I'll never get tired of this show! One the most listened to drum corps shows in my music library. And, as a fan, I could always sense the enjoyment the members felt in performing this show. Entertaining!!! Lastly, was there any horn line louder than Crown in 2012? I didn't hear one - and there was some pretty loud brass lines out there last year. Very deserving of the Jim Ott award. I'm looking forward to see if Crown can finally get over the hump in 2013.

I have a different take on the contention of yours that the higher corps have more 'fans' in the stands because they are the best. Yes the top units are better in their performances, and yes people tend to enjoy the higher performance levels. That said, my contention is that DCI spectators closely resemble spectators of all other marching activities; most, not all, but most spectators are families, friends, or age-outs not fans off the street. And due to that situation the top units have more 'people' in the stands mainly because they go on near the end after families, friends, and age-outs of the other units have entered the stadium thus, by default, they have more 'people' in the stands.

In recent years, BAC 2009-2012, very aggressive and raw, yet very refined at times (especially 2011 - very ballad heavy show). During the Gold years, the Gmen fielded some phenomenal lines. Loved Southwind 2000 (book and line) and Seattle Cascades 2002

1. Cadets! Both Sides Now blows the judges away with the avant guard that they love but still engages the audience as a fan favorite. 2. Phantom On an STRONG upward swing. If they can only up their drill difficulty... they will be here. 3. Blue Devils... you know, something tells me that if they do another show about randomness the judges will slot them here. But if they experiment something outside their design comfort zone then maybe they will be higher and win. 4. Crown They are As consistent as Cadets... If Cadets are up then Crown will be down and visa versa. 5. Bluecoats No reason they should be 5th, except they just kinda get stuck here? 6. SCV This is a comfy spot 7. Cavies I knew this was going to be another problem for Cavies... they are TRYING TO HARD TO BE CAVIES!! They want to be like the Cavies they were and it's not going to happen. By thinking about the past and wanting to be like "frameworks" or "The machine" they are actually being un-cavies like. People can tell when they are trying too hard and it is PAINFUL to watch! Just chill out, and put together a show that isn't trying to be anything other than the future of drum corps, forget the past Cavies! 8. Madison Anniversary year bump! may beat Cavies honestly. 9. Boston 10. Spirit 11. Crossmen STRONGER! 12. Academy 13. Glassmen 14. Blue Stars... :( great staff... but a rebuilding year is a rebuilding year...

DUKE! And I guarantee you that well over 95% of the general public, if asked "Who are the Blue Devils?", they will answer DUKE! Which, by the way, puts the DCI Blue Devils, as well as all drum corps, in 'proper' perspective!!!!!

I'd change the rule where idiots are allowed to scream during the soft parts during the "Big Boys" shows, especially during finals, and not get ejected from the stadium. I think they are trying to get immortalized on the drum corps recordings so they can tell their drum corps friends "hey that's me screaming during Cadets solo." I would change the rule so the idiots can be hunted down and identified, then get banned for life.

And I quote: “I think Santa Clara is always classy. I like to refer to them as the Rolls Royce of the industry. Most of the kids who are now 28, 29 grew up loving the Santa Clara corps. I just got old in drum corps loving the Santa Clara corps. I think that I’m prejudice. I love this drum corps; they’re my kind of corps, if we’re allowed to say that. And I think they did many, many wonderful things out there. They brought us a truly accessible show that audiences can relate to. I don’t think they’re going to do as well as Mr. Rondinaro predicted because of the things that Michael (Cesario) talked about; which were obvious to us up here - but we’re on the fifth level. And the judges aren’t up here. So we may not know exactly what’s going on.”

Too bad Queen didn't do a song called "We Were The Champions"... that would be a perfect theme song for the new tour.

Non-finalist corps get kids that are finalist level performers every year. Tons of them. The biggest problem is retention. I would venture to say between 25-30% of kids that march Pioneer will go on to eventually march a finalist corps. So a good number of kids that are marching in a 13-24th place corps are finalist level performers. Once again using Pioneer as an example, I have stated before, if every kid who started marching with Pioneer, stayed with Pioneer until they aged out, Pioneer would be a lot closer to making finals. The same could also be said for Colts, Troopers, and a few other corps. And I think if you had most people staying at the corps they started with, you would see a much leveler playing field. It used to be any given night, almost any corps could beat another corps. Now you very seldom see any corps moving more than a spot or 2 during the summer. And you know next year Pioneer is not going to beat Blue Devils at any point during the season. And you are also much more likely to see a corps drop 5 spots than to rise 5 spots.

.... which could be why many fold ;-)

Calling Dave Brubeck a "legend" doesn't quite do him enough justice. May he rest in peace. A transcendent talent.

Corps must submit financial statements each year in order to be eligible to compete. Financial statements must demonstrate that either: A) Corps must demonstrate they plan to spend no more than 75% of revenues B) If corps is spending more than 75% of revenues... any amount over 75% may not contribute to program costs, but may only go toward expanding or diversifying revenue streams

no doing lame shows

Ditch the electronics, period.

I would somehow institute a cap on spending for ALL corps. Even if the uniforms and instuments are given to top corps, it would count towards the value of the cap. Staff also, look at some of the web pages of the top 8 corps, there are almost as many staff members as corps members. This is considered a non profit activity.

No DCI music judge has ever produce great music ensemble? Isn't Richard Saucedo a music Judge for DCI? And I ever heard of anything called "fake jazz," though I do know BD and Madison are pretty famous for their charts and ability to outplay others, though Madison's line was just two spots ahead of Spirit's last year. BD was way out of both their leagues though, especially in show design.

I think the number is irrelevant. We have had TOC 8 shows, top 12 finals, top 17 semis, etc....but there is one HUGE difference. In the history of DCI, all of these lines of demarcation have resulted from competitive results. The G7, however, is a self-proclaimed elite. If they want to REALLY prove their mettle, then make the G7 based on ACTUAL DCI placements...but that is NOT their intent. That is the crux of the matter, as far as I am concerned. Most folks had no issues with the Murphreesboro shows those years because eligibility was determined by competitive rankings, not edict. The unpleasant taste of elitism is all over this. I wonder, what would happen if in 2013 corps like Boston and Madison placed 5/6? Would the Mag 7 still proclaim they are the best? Based on what? And, if they do leave the activity, what then? I can tell you, 12 months after Star of Indiana left DCI, so did their presence. Yes, there was the highly successful Brass Theatre, followed by the highly successful BLAST, but that organization's impact and presence in DCI was no longer. Are the alumni of the G7 corps really ready for this?

I’d like to take a fresh stab at the OP So let’s say I buy into the G7’s predications What happens next? A few years in, all the corps that stayed in DCI go extinct – the G7 is the only Jr. Drum corps game around. They have to travel around together to fill up shows which, are greatly reduced as much of their time is spent doing education camps. With out the DCI corps to train marchers, the bottom half of the G7 drops greatly in quality, they become the new training, feeder corps – so they lose their sponsorships, why sponsor a loser? This bottom tier loses money, becomes a drain on the better corps....they don’t attract as many marcher, sell as many tickets, generate the educational revenues, have the souvie sales...you know, all the things endemic to being at the bottom rung of an elite activity. The lower corps further suffer due to marcher retention, more marchers use them as stepping stone corps, spending a year there then moving up to bigger, better, G3 corps. The board of the G7 which, is heavily dominated by the top 2 maybe 3 corps, has to step in and cuts sponsorship deals for the entire org, all the corps use the same products... efficiency of scale combined with the bonus of exclusive vendor contracts. They need to stop the bleeding of the lesser corps which becomes a drain upon them. These deals go through the G3 sponsorship deal; one gets instruments, the other Unies.. further enriching them and widening the corps divide and power balance. In order to counter act this homogeneity in corps and to ensure diversity of entertainment…the G7 corps must submit design proposals for prior approval – so we end up with only 1 artsy show, 1 patriotic show, one fan pleasing show etc …the bottom tier corps keep falling further behind competitively and finically so in addition to concept ideas, show design as far as content is reviewed, approved and tweaked by the top designers, at a price….they’re just helping the other corps remain competitive, they should be grateful. After 2 of the G7 corps fold and with another 2 on the brink, all corps are absorbed into one big mega-corps org controlled by MiM and the remaining corps act as divisional brands with in the MiM org …the competitive aspects become as scripted as Professional wrestling Meanwhile, the market has shrunk dramatically, fewer corps, fewer marchers, fewer alumni, fewer shows, fewer fans…not to mention the ill will of the DCI fans... so to counter the shrinking market, the G7 do a cash grab of woodwinds and other bando appeasements which destroys the drum corps brand more than it helps…the entire emphasis of drum corps thus shifts to product placement and vendor sales….by now the MiM board is facing retirement and sells the entire, org to Yamaha where drum corps is part of the advertising budget and used as an educational tax write-off to balance against the hugely popular dirt bike division And of course, all us that remain are grateful for the G7 saving drum corps

There is a G23 right now, called DCI. I say we go with that. As for your other question, it depends on what you mean by "pulling its weight". If someone proposed objective performance measurements to require of World Class corps with the goal of ensuring the health of the activity that seemed reasonable I would gladly support such, even if it meant a few corps might have to bump back down to Open Class or agree to a probationary period, or even shut down. But what the G7 have done is band together, insisting that they, and not DCI in general, are the real draw and that furthermore they should get more money, more control, and that half of DCI should be cut loose, and that DCI should do nothing but organize shows and serve as a cash flow routing system. But they've not provided any *reason* beyond "we are the leaders" and "the current system is not sustainable". But those are just unfounded assertions. Since DCI was unwilling to rubber stamp their coup attempt, then, they are now trying to have their cake and eat it, too by staying inside DCI and reaping the benefits while also pumping up their revenues by operating shows outside the DCI purview, and yet still, somehow, getting DCI to promote those shows. The problem is that no one has described "the problem" beyond the vague ideas that attendance is declining, costs are growing, and revenue is falling. Well, it's really hard for us to make clear judgments about those items given the minimal information DCI is willing to release, but according to what information I've been able to find out, attendance has been rising somewhat over the past couple of years, and based on Garfields' 990 analyses, finances are looking up for DCI and the top corps of late as well. If there's a money problem it's at the lower end of DCI, not the top. I think the top corps benefit from a healthy lower tier of corps, but the G7 seems to see them as parasites. Any cooperative association is going to have some members who contribute more than others. If the G7 becomes a separate entity, either semi-associated with DCI or completely split, I think you'll soon see the fractures show up there as the G7 members who handle their finances better start to resent the ones who do not. It's inevitable. The key to the success of cooperatives, though, is a willingness to see some "unfair" redistribution of income. Without that willingness, there's no cooperation going on at all, and you may as well split up DCI right now.

I always thought Velvet Knights had some darn good lines!

The staff and volunteers at the Stanford Show are always top notch. As both a performer and spectator, I always enjoy the stanford show.

the quality continues to improve under 12th place. The biggest thing now is to get the corps down there to not just continue getting better with quality performance and design, but to be more engaging with the general population. I've been following DCI since I was a kid, and i NEVER remember the amount of buzz a corps in 20th place got that comes anywhere close to Jersey Surf last year. Sure it had dirt, and yeah, at times maybe the design was too old school. But I can guarantee you even the home town team at Allentown did not get a reaction like Surf did going on 2 hours earlier. Not even close

Music City and Jersey Surf really entertained me ! IMHO Music City was the most underscored corps from last year. Seems to me that in order to move up in placement the lower placing corps need to hug and kiss more,kill people, move furniture, exercise,roll around on the ground , and buy huge drapes to cover this stuff up. Just the way I see it.

I continue to be amazed at the quality level of the non-finalist corps... especially those in the 13-17 bracket. Those non-finalists in that bracket, not too many years ago, would have been solid finalists. Only saw the "Thursday prelims at the movies" show this past summer... and the non-finalist that really impressed me the most on the cinecast was The Academy. Great visual show, excellent uniforms, and a solid program. And of course... Jersey Surf, for really bringing it home to the paying customers.

I totally agree with everyone on Jersey Surf and Pacific Crest. More like this please! I also got a kick out of the Cascades and Mandarins this year. And Academy put out some finals-class show design, and I hope with some more polish and development they will be a true finals contender in years to come.

sounds like financially, SCV has their #### together better than anyone

My source says that (name of corps) had a record turnout. This will be a year unlike any other. They are hungry! Watch out!

Now if they would bring back their classic look from the 70's and re-establish their identity like the Scouts have done, they would take a giant step forward.

I voted for 2007. My runnerup choices would be 2011 and 2006. My favorite Crown horn line is the 2009 edition.