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This is enough to make me stop lurking. dans, I appreciate your point, and agree that you shouldn't necessarily be downvoted solely because you provided a contrary opinion, HOWEVER, there is some insinuation here that I believe needs to be corrected. 1) "If DCI doesn't listen to the successful in the activity" indicates that the members of DCI aren't interested in input from the (competitively) successful groups, which is a fallacy. If I understand history correctly, none of their directors has run for a seat on the DCI BoD since 2010. It's not that they are being kept out or that folks aren't interested in listening, they are intentionally not participating in any leadership. Which of course hanicaps the entity as whole if any larger constituency isn't engaged in forward thinking discussions. That's very important to note. 2) "Kudos to the 7 for thinking outside of the box" implies that there is a plan of some sort, when George explicity states that they have no plan. If you take it in another context that they are thinking "outside" of the governace box and proposing a new governance model, that's true, but a) it's not a new model, it's a reversion and b) Hop was the one that advocated for the governance model currently in place a few years ago, IIRC. 3) Lastly, I understand the value we all place on "on-the-field" success in this wonderful activity. Consider for a moment that there may be some intelligent directors who may have been "successful" on other areas, (say, business development?) beyond 12th place.

Although . . . . the "victim" card has its limits.

Not for nothing, and I haven't read the entire thread, but at what point to kids realize that, if someone is making money from this gig, why are we paying $3000+ to participate? Silly thought? Perhaps. But it sounded good to me at 1am Carry on.

I'll be honest...if push comes to shove, I'm not sure all 7 bolt DCI

I just wish we had specific proposals how to make DCI more marketable to performers and audience. Honestly, the G-7 leaders might well have CORRECT ideas how to kick-start DCI in a challenging economic environment. Like them, or not, these are intelligent and capable people. Too bad, all we can do is assume they are right or wrong. Based on what, exactly?

OK Catherine!

But based on previous statements by SEPTEM, that's exactly what won't happen if they get their way now. Surely their first move, upon the membership voting to change DCI's bylaws so that only the top twelve can vote in the future, will be to call for a new vote, to change DCI's bylaws again so that something like the G-7 proposal takes effect. This proposal will of course pass by a vote of seven to five (and may very well strip the five of voting power). And then DE ZEVEN will arrange things so that they each get a bigger cut of the show proceeds, and exclusive weekend shows with no competition from lower-ranking corps, and permanent status for themselves as members of this elite. How on earth does anyone "get better" on the terms LES SEPT are known to advocate? Given this flouting by NG PITONG of DCI's mission of cooperation and mutual benefit for all corps, the question is: what kind of hardball should DCI be playing this month? DCA banned Renegades for a year because their members smashed up some hotel rooms, on the grounds that such activity reflected badly on the organization. This G-7 nonsense seems much worse to me, much more detrimental to drum corps as a whole (rather than to the little club for seven groups who think they're everything). Should, and can, DCI ban Blue Devils and Cadets (and any other ringleaders of this nonsense) from participating in DCI events for, oh, the next three years? Will that be enough to end this foolishness? Could those corps survive even one year without at least half their expected show income? DCI certainly can survive without two or three corps, even the past two years' champions. Would the other five members of A HET abandon BD and Cadets, given that with two fewer corps, they now get a slightly bigger share of the DCI pie (and a clear shot at victory, in Crown's case)? (edited to fix a couple typos)

A bittersweet farewell.

Is there anything now that prevents them from voicing their ideas and making proposals? There certainly have been plenty of rules changes over the last decade that I would presume came from "G7" corps. The problem is that they tend to make changes that increase the cost of operating a drum corps without any matching increase in attendance because that change was implemented. Electronics didn't add to attendance, as far as I can tell. But, it did become more equipment each corps had to buy. That's because ROI in drum corps is measured in what score they get and not whether the additional cost to get that score meant any more revenue for the drum corps activity. Just because someone is intelligent at one thing, doesn't make them have a marketing background or knowledge of econometrics. Does any G7 director have an MBA? Have they ever run a business other than their drum corps?

I would really like to hear someone other than Hopkins open their mouth publicly about this whole thing. Thanks to Arnold for making some statement, but he didn't address the G7 specifically. From what I've read Gibbs/Devils is a major player, and maybe Fiedler/SCV has his mitts in the oven. What about the other corps? They are all sitting in on the weekly conference call, that is indisputable. Let's hear from them, if not a statement then someone should ask them about it while doing a fluff piece for DCI Today, or the DCI webpage, or one of the many interview opportunities during the summer. Let's shine a light into the darkness and see if the rats scramble or if they stand firm.

I think DCP, like nearly all internet forums, is full of a lot of passionate people who are on the outside: people not designing shows, attending rules meetings, in on conference calls with directors, etc. Essentially people who at worst have zero experience in the activity other than a fan, and at best have previously marched, taught, designed, directed but currently do not. There are a few people on here who are currently on a drum corps BoD, who do work for corps, etc. But most of us (myself included) are not actively involved in the activity more than as a fan, parent, or volunteer: we aren't in on any meaningful design or direction decisions for DCI or its member corps. With that in mind, we are giving uninformed opinions, based on at best one interpretation of one side of the argument, and at worst just our own emotion. Without seeing how the Directors' meetings play out, without hearing exact plans laid out but both sides, internet forums are just fan fodder. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't have a "soft spot" for the G7. I just want to be informed before jumping in persecuting any ideas that aren't entirely fleshed out to the public, without hearing BOTH side give their arguments, etc. We have yet to hear any of that, so getting passionate about a leaked email, or powerpoint without seeing how it plays out officially is getting passionate without proper context.

This. And, I STILL wonder how the 7 judge neither Madison nor Boston to be "successful".....

wining on the field doesn't always equate to winning in the board room

you're also smart enough to know in a committee, some voices have more power and sway than others. if you don't have a vote on the EBOD, just the regular BOD, is it wise to #### off the EBOD guys? having people run an organization that compete against each other 3 months of the year, then try to be buddies the other 9 months is lunacy.

Some of us who were there at the beginning of DCI remember how in the early years some of these G7 Corps would not have made it, as it was their fellow member DCI Corps, more experienced than they at the time, helped pull them thru some rough financial, and competitive stretches. Their Corps Directors went to DCI sponsored Seminars in the winter months, run by DCI founders, other DCI Corps Directors, business and marketing consulting people, to provide these Corps advice, direction, support, etc on how to develop and successfully run a DCI Corps. This training allowed these Corps to get off the ground and to provide them an foothold to help them to grow and to later prosper. Which they did. Without their fellow DCI member Corps staff providing such assistance, support,encouragement, etc to some of these G7 Corps back then, few of them would even exist today, and that irony is not lost on some of us that " remember way back when ".... when the Troopers, Boston, Madison, Blue Stars, 27th, Crossmen, Kilties, etc were on top but never tried to hurt the Blue Devils, Cadets, Phantom Reg., Bluecoats, etc that were below in placements ( WAY below, in some early years too I might add ), but instead these DCI fellow Corps Directors offered most of these G7 Corps assistance, support, training, advice, encouragement, etc.

I know the scores and placements mean practically nothing when it comes down to it, but I'm giving everyone outside the idiotic G7 thing extra support in 2013, especially to someone who gets bigger crowd responses than just about all of them! Can't wait to see what Madison brings in 2013! Keep moving up!

Much like the Troopers cavalry styled uniforms, Bayonne's Hats and yellow Coats, and of course the kilts with my beloved Kilties.. The renegades uniform set them apart, and was part of their identity, and frankly, was a part of their coolness. There in fact a desperate need to get back to that classic identity.

I am probably more excited for this year's show than I have been in 10 years. Bought my San Antonio tickets today - from the Scouts of course.

We march agressive drill and trombones at West Chester U(the better WCU ) It can be a real pain in the ### at times. Doing a 180 at a flying backup into a halt at 2 step intervals comes to mind. It's always the backfield to front field stuff where we ran into problems. There is just no way to make it look clean. Personally I'm not the biggest fan of trombones in marching band. I was switched to baritone in HS. And I'm glad I was. I like the sound of a trombone section in marching bands. But it is so hard to clean visually. Trombone players are awful with upper body stuff. Yes, it is possible to clean... but trombone players are a pain in the ### in the first place. And going out to 5 + positions while marching is no fun... and some body moves while playing just don't work well. I love the trombone. I've been playing all my life. I just don't see a place for it in drum corps of today. I wouldn't be hurt if it was allowed for solo or small group purposes, especially since it projects fine with NO i repeat NOOOOOOOO AMPLIFICATION necessary. Just don't see a need for it on the field. And whoever said something along the lines of cleaning trombones musically is a challenge. It's no more a challenge than cleaning slow fingers.. in fact I think it can be easier to clean. I had a #### clean trombone section at WCU when I was section leader. Cleaner than the baritones.. that's for sure. And we had plenty of challenging music.

Hmmm I see quotes in the first post like and and Didn't see anything there address what I wrote. Please go ahead and copy/paste what I must be missing in the 1st post of this thread proof that the directors have intentionally not been engaging the DCI BoD for some reason. Thanks

Garfield, I think I speak for most of us here on DCP when I say a huge THANK YOU for the herculean task you undertook on our behalf. I know for me personally, I have a redefined outlook on a great number of corps now, seeing what they have to work with. It also has affected how I, and I think others, view DCI current events. Thanks again - while we haven't commented as much as you might have expected, I guarantee we have all been watching and reading! Mike

Welcome all to open house!!! Can't wait it's been too long. Can't wait to get going

This is CLASSY!

That is not how it works. We have already seen that the "The 7" have declared themselves the ruling class of the activity. The first change they made to the format of the shows formerly known as TOC was to remove the merit-based qualification of the Boston Crusaders, who beat the Cavaliers fair and square in 2012. So "better" does not matter.

In all the questioning, dissing, discussion, and explanations in this thread, I think this is the worst part to read. As we see corps folding, going inactive, and barely surviving on life support, to lose a corps for political reasons is sad. I think the bridge needs to be mended and both DCA and the Renegades should meet once again in the middle. I hope this can happen. Good luck to the Renegades this year. I am looking forward going to open house on the 26th with a car load of other Southern California people! Should be a great weekend.

I'm performing with another corps at a couple of the same shows as them, but I'll do my best to be in the stands by the time they're on. 2012 made them my favorite corps, and I'm not going to miss a chance to see them live, especially after a year like that. Whatever is going on with the G7, I'll be there to see amazing performers putting on an amazing show. Looking forward to the show announcement whenever it happens.

Gary, I like the Renegades, too! I considered other messages including . . . Time to move on. Give it a rest. What's done is done. There's no going back, only forward. Tomorrow is another day. etc. Maybe my choice was a bit harsh.

First, as you know I am a Renegades fan and supporter,.......but, now we blame the posters on DCP?

So, after more than two months and nearly a thousand posts and 75,000 views, we come to the end of our little venture. We've reviewed 22 corps plus DCI and I've very much enjoyed getting to know the financials of each corps a little better. (This is where each of you give me a green plus because, either, you're glad I'm finally done and/or you appreciate the effort. /shameless plug.) There have been quite a few surprises that changed the assumptions I had going in, not the least of all is the recent success that DCI has had. While I'm not surprised at the lack of comments (expecially considering the views) I'm happy and thankful that the thread stayed on course and that everyone avoided the urge to derail it. Nothing ever dies on DCP so this consolidated record will be available to reference for as long as John D allows it ("Hail to the king. Long live the king!"). I have several things to do yet. First will be to update the spreadsheet and post it in the next couple of days. That'll be the raw data. Then I think I'll start a thread where comments about the data will flow a little easier and where we can discuss some of the conclusions that come out of this exercise. I'm thinking about a poll, too. And I've been asked to write an article summarizing the findings of the 990s. The likely most significant annual meeting in DCI's history is coming up in two weeks. Perhaps this data would be useful to some attending that meeting. Perhaps the commentary from DCP will be illustrative, too. So pipe in on the upcoming 990's discussion thread. Thanks for playing. garfield

I'm sure the show will be highly entertaining, but by signing onto a DCI split/coup attempt that can only hurt the lower tier corps, they put a really bad taste in my mouth. And as for CrownBaritone's comment, I fully support the marchers, but I think Crown is doing you guys wrong by supporting Hop's plan, and I think you and everyone in the drum corps community will be far worse off once the dust settles. I'm not trying to stir anything up. I'm just saying it's disappointing and the side effect is that I don't really care what their show is, and I won't be making an effort to see it this year.

The solution is simple: Just put the names of all the "Group of 7" corps in a hat, then draw one name. This corps will be ostracized by the fans for one entire season. Nobody goes to their sponsored show/shows. Nobody buys tickets or merchandise from them. Nobody stays in their seats for their performance in any show, all season long. Instead they file out beforehand and return afterward. I think the Director of this corps would quickly get the message.....

Having been to the HBCU Honda Battle of the Bands, I've been (slightly) exposed to this sort of production, though I didn't witness a "tunnel." It certainly is enthusiastic, but I hope no one ever tells them they could be more like drum corps, because what they have is singularly unique and wonderful in its own right, and it fits the purpose for which it is intended. Conversely, drum corps is what it is for the purpose for which it is intended. When fans proclaim, "Stop trying to change drum corps!," or, "Stop trying to make drum corps more like marching band!," I don't think this is what they had in mind to be concerned about, and I suspect it would only add fuel to a fire that isn't begging to be ignited. Each activity needs to be appreciated for what it is, and not unappreciated for what it isn't.

The G7 wants the controlling vote at the DCI BOD table. 7 out of 12 votes. these corps have Contributed at every level . Thats WHY DCI is in the predicament it is. when These corps were ON the DCI board was when all these changes were made to Alienate the fans ,ticket holders and souvenir buyers. A request stating that we need the controlling vote of the DCI BOD table or we are leaving is in bad form. Not the way to run an organization and one I would not support or defend . DCI is not for the corps with the highest budgets , IT IS FOR ALL . Look at the mission statements for these corps. I believe these 7 should re read them. Making better human beings through music and the arts does not mean , only the higher budgeted corps make better humans, but ALL participants in every corps. If these G7 have ideas on how to help the future of DCI it should share them with all corps and the DCI BOD.. DCI is not for only the RiCHER , higher tour fee , higher placing corps . But ALL CORPS. Since this is the second attempt at a coup on the DCI board they are not to be trusted with the majority vote. PROVE YOURSELF to be trustworthy, keeping the integrity of DCI , their fans and supporters, in mind first. Its a NON PROFIT >>> So higher budgets do not matter. HigherTour fees do not matter. they should all balance out end of the year. DCI should NOT be for the rich students but ALL students. If a young man or women wants to better themselves through participation in a DCI corps , the amount they can afford to pay in tour fees or their skill level , should NOT limit their ability to prosper as a human being. This is what this G7 PROPOSAL IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH. Higher , faster , louder , higher scoring , more toys , higher budgets has all to do with competition . The DCI board should NOT be run by competition but by ALL who participate. If the west coast corps wanted all the votes because there budget is more than the CADETS and CROWN the EAST coast corps would have a fit. Thats the same as they are doing to the other WC and OC corps. Do they deserve a vote . YES. Do they deserve the controlling vote . NO The G7 is looking for 7 votes. Give them 5. Give them 5 of 21 votes. Since they have separated themselves into this group G7and have separate shows ( The TOC shows ) . the group should receive 5 votes . The other 16 corps in WC should receive a total of 12 votes .With the OC corps receiving 4 votes. Voting members should be voted on by their separate groups. G7 , WC , OC =21 votes . With DCI executive Director having a VETO on all rule changes and changes to the DCI By laws.

I agree. Membership on the board should require the brightest, best, and most motivated and qualified minds of drum corps - or those who have the best interests of drum corps at heart with all the aforementioned qualities. Membership on the BOD shouldn't be based on corps placement. There should also be some continuity as well as a full vetting process.

Ever see Ohio State march the Script Ohio w/ slide trombones?

I marched Gold last year, and yes we are going back to finals, but they are still working out scheduling. This was the same case last year, they told us at the first auditions that we were going to finals, but it wasn't published on dci.org until really late, like June. Anyways yay SoCal!

Well ironically if DCI followed GH's " input from the successful, ( him ) they ( Corps ) will not survive ", would've been undeniably true. Thats because he personally proposed killing off 20 of them.

I hope this year's Crown show will have a very intelligent design. The thought of that brass sound always makes my hair stand up. Hopefully 2013 will follow the formula they've established over the past few years. Cannot wait :)

George will just wake them up even earlier....

Matt Harloff This man took the Carolina Crown Hornline, which was 16th place in 2003, to winning THREE brass titles in under a decade (many would argue that the corps should have won brass in 2008 and 2010 as well). His committment to excellence is unmatched, and the impact that his brass section has had on the activity is nothing short of remarkable.

Playbills? I just read it for the articl....Never mind.

Ah, so YOU'RE the guy that attends their shows.

That's good to know. We're in need of level-headed, dynamic leaders. Too much is at stake.

DCI overplayed their hand? DCI? Dangerous assumption? Actually the opposite is true. I'm so tired of the Hop and G7 threats, I want them to LEAVE ALREADY. Go. Make your big huge awesome changes. Go, be unrestrained. Play to your scholastic music clusters. Put your money where you big mouth is. Leave. And, at the same time, do you think DCI wouldn't change their rules after the "7" leave?

This didn't used to be the case where the top DCI corps were "ordained" to win. Possibly it's time for the 7 to go their way and DCI restructure from the ground up. Face it, DCI has been riding on the carcass of drum corps for some time. I personally feel the elimination of the local circuits was the nail in the coffin for corps that wanted to tour locally. Were they all good...no. Generally speaking beginners generally aren't going to be as good as 21 and 22 year old experienced players and guard members. The fact some people won't tolerate a sub G7 show for their precious ears is why these younger kids are deflated. You have always seen THAT parent on the soccer or baseball field or even DCI show that had a smaller corps there performing. But I am digressing. Here are my thoughts on it. 1) Bring back the local circuits and start doing more parade/shows at festivals. 2) Go back to G horns. (Please let me elaborate) -Corps have lost a unique sound when this was implemented. Right now there is NOTHING separating a brass marching band and a drum corps. Try and market that as unique. Also the differences between the haves and have nots have grown to be HUGE esp with brass manufacturers. Old horns weren't the best but they held up better than these new ones. And only the larger corps are getting the benefits from rotating their horns. Deals smaller corps cannot get. 3) I also suggest more local youth involvement being that only a certain percentage can be out of that corps operating area. This would also bolster more local involvement. Face it if your corps is from everywhere but where you are...yeah that gonna be good for local parents. This would also put the hammer down on the huge amounts of talent running to the top 3 every year. 4) Lose the electronics. 5) Make the maximum number back to 128 or 135. 6) Limit front side ensemble to a max % of the marching corps. Anyhow feel free to lambast me as a dino.

There sure is a lot of cynicism and paranoia associated with this thread. I feel that the proposal from the 7 is reasonable, level headed, and makes sense for the future of this activity. Why don't the most consistently successful corps have a vote in DCI? That is flat out bad business, DCI is not taking advantage of input from the most successful. No one will convince me that the talk of this being a "power grab" is anything but anti-Hop rhetoric, plain and simple. We have a really bad economic environment in this country, keeping a drum corps alive is a challenging endeavor. If DCI doesn't listen to input from the successful in this activity, they will not survive. I say kudos to the 7 for thinking outside of the box and trying to ensure the future of this great but fragile activity.

Would such coverage include the talent show and evening gown competition?

You're assuming the only reason a new uniform is "badly needed" would be because the other one is old and falling apart. It's all good. Hope you can come out and enjoy a show. Rock on. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I see that Lee has responded in a much more eloquent fashion. Ok..NOW rock on. LOL

One of the few things that have stuck out in my mind is the Madison Scouts in the last minute of their show forming their famous vertical company front on the 50 and then rotating it around... its a blast from the past and also a play on words as they are performing The Bogatyr Gates movement of Pictures at an Exhibition... newer fans of the activity probably dont realize this is a signature move, like Troopers Sunburst. Unfortunately you still need a hearing aid at its max to hear Bb horns.