Leaderboard

you know what we are to 99% of the world? marching band

So, if they're not contributing anymore, should they be of vital concern to the organization?

On the same hand, others can, IDK, not post in forums of boring activities. I know trolls gonna troll and all, but I also understand people who want to talk World Class DCI drum corps get annoyed/tired/bored by the constant sniping of the activity, the overly dramatic, "hey, I'm an awful troll with no life who needs attention so let me just say it: this activity is boring me: now look at me and give me attention please" type of nonsense, wastes of bandwidth. Crap like the OP is part of the problem/reason why so many people who are actually actively involved in the activity (current MM's, staffers, designers, directors, judges, etc) don't take DCP seriously at all.

In before the close.

The Skyliners are very excited to be marching in the second largest St. Patrick's Parade in the country this Saturday. We are marching in the Scranton St. Patrick's Day parade. The parade kicks off at 11:45. It will be televised locally on Channel 22, WYOU in Scranton. We are in Division 5. After the parade, we will post video and pictures of the day. Thanks for all your support and kind words so far. Next step - to the FIELD! Larry

No need to name names, but you are trying to speaking for others, and I find that incredibly cocky. Furthermore, if they don't attend shows anymore, they stopped liking the activity long before the new rule, and haven't support the Madison Scouts for a while, from the way you describe them. You talk about old school Madison as being what, the early 80's when you marched. What about the guys from that same era that don't mind it, or guys from the 70's, or era's before that, that don't mind it, are their views not as valid as yours? And now you're saying it's "some" of them. What happened to the generalized statement, where you implied all?

What are you talking about? What "went under"? They just changed the name from USSBA to USBands, after going from CMBC to USSBA initially. Just a name change. Angry band directors? That happens all the time in every circuit I have seen over the decades. Bands move between circuits all the time. Sometimes bands leave one circuit only to eventually come back and may rinse and repeat more than one time.

Joel has one impressive resume!

RBarron10- I thank you for your contribution to what can be a valuable dialogue. It's a dialogue we've had several times before, but hopefully we learn something new each time. Most likely, 8 out of 10 posts that follow will attack your opinion, and possibly even your person. I won't. I don't think you came back here to destroy the activity. I think you came here to help it flourish. I also want acknowledge Brad T for doing the same, and those who follow. This activity is not big enough to suggest you, or anyone with similar views, get lost. It needs to find a way to keep you onboard. To my eyes, there has been great change in this unusual product. But, more importantly, I accept that I HAVE CHANGED, TOO! I've adjusted my relationship with it, and so can you. Having seen 1000, or more, drum corps shows in person over the years, I give you the advice I now give others of my vintage. Simply this, the corps will change on their schedule. Change the way YOU witness what they do. I think you'll find, today's shows are BETTER THAN EVER for where you (and I) are in our present requirements, and wherein we find value. Give the activity a different look. For me, DCI corps have become so complex, so multi-layered, so detailed, etc., I no longer enjoy it as I once did from a single seat in the grandstand, at a single viewing. I'd miss too much in person. I can't take-in enough anymore in that setting. I have discovered Pay-Per-View now works far better. I realize now, without the aid of multi-camera views, close-ups, personal sound control, and an outstanding seating location for whatever the corps are doing, I'm bored, too. I make no apologies for that. Neither should anyone else. Far too much of today's supurb productions are missed, by ME, taking it in live. I can't imagine anyone sitting 'low on the twenty' seeing and hearing what I do now. Obviously, very many people still attend live, and at great expense. It's their turn. I had mine. Life goes on. The corps and shows today are simply amazing. Once skeptical of where we've gone, now I can see that special attraction is still alive. There is incredible talent presented here in an imaginative way that exceeds what I once thought possible. What a joy to rediscover drum corps can still work for me. A good example is the recent Blue Devils show. I spoke with several knowledgeable people who saw them live and hated their show. It made no sense to them, and evidently not many of the rest of the audience either. I'm here to tell you, that show would NOT translate adequately live, especially with a single viewing opportunity. But, it's a fantastic poduction when presented in a DIFFERENT package! I watch it over and over, and with pleasure. All the other corps have much to like, too. I should shout out to the Cavaliers who never cease to satisfy me. To sum it up, RBaron10 . . . hang in there. Give it another look, a different look. Never forget, YOU have changed, too! Can't wait for the coming season!

Reminds me of an old joke: "Sweetheart, I think you're drunk again... your face is all blurry!!!" LOL

Our current photo subject.... He was the topic of a conversation we had last Friday at Bahrs Landing, a seafood restaurant near Sandy Hook, NJ... the northern part of the Jersey Shore. We were up there visiting family, went out to dinner... and ran into a Skyliners alumnus who lives in the area and who spends some time at that restaurant. In fact, we've seen this man every time we've been to that restaurant!! This alum showed us a painting he had donated to the restaurant... a painting of a ship, given to him by our current photo subject... donated to the seafood place after our subject had passed away. Our photo subject had made the last trans-Atlantic crossing on that ship, as a member of the crew. OK... I know there are probably no clues in all that, but I thought it was a nice story.

We've heard this same thing over and over and over again. The dead horse is dead, bro. You can all stop beating it. I loved last year with the exception of SCV. Been there. Heard that. Over it.

Probably the same type of people that complained in 1997 that we were doing a Pirate show.

If a horn line could ever score a 20, or even above it if possible, it would have been this Crown line. I saw them three times in June, and knew that they had the trophy locked up. They were so far ahead of everyone else in terms of their sound, that keeping the spreads as close as they did for Finals made the difference not as apparent. Crown was a level and a half above the rest of the field this year.

While the addition of trombones doesn't bother me, I agree with this point. (Edited to correct my errant grammar.)

There are many great bands from Madison actually, school, amateur, and professional. Which one are you referring to? The Madison Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps are actually very good as well.

Wait wait wait wait wait. Wait. You mean that opinion can VARY?! Just because a handful of guys from one era dislike (or like) something doesn't necessarily mean that ALL guys from that era share the same opinion?!?!?! Crazy

This is how we started Gulf Coast Sound drum and bugle corps back in 2002 - we teamed up with the University of Houston's winter guard and competed in the Texas Color Guard Circuit Independent World class. At the time, there was nothing that said your musical accompaniment had to be recorded. They changed that rule after 2003. Here's our show from 2002 - the performance starts around 1:20. I actually like our 2003 show better - that is on the same page. http://www.gulfcoastsound.org/video2002.html

As a reminder, these aren't "perfect" scores but "maximum" scores. And what would be the point of disallowing judges from awarding the maximum possible score? All it would really do is make the maximum score minus one tenth the new maximum.

Speaking of what people will pay for marching band ... this past Fall was my son's first year with the high school band (he's an 8th grader), and of course I can't recall what the financial arrangements were back in my own high school when I marched. But I've been heavily involved with youth sports for a decade, and people drop hundreds to thousands of dollars a year on youth sports for their kids, starting before they are 10. So I truly was flabbergasted when I heard at the first parent's meeting that some people were balking that last year's $50 fee to march with the high school had risen to $100, even though all of it would be reimbursed if they obtained that much in ads for our tournament's ad-book. Flabbergasted, and more than a little sad, that people think all that time being educated in music, and all that time the kids will enjoy, is only begrudgingly worth $100.

Oregon Crusaders has made a pretty cool animation to try and describe why we drum corps people do what we do, what it takes to do it, and the impact it has on the community. http://oregoncrusaders.org/thekid/ The video with animation is pretty cool and was done by an OC vet.

Why do they need to be the same show? Why does the best performed show have to be the most audience-friendly every year? Think about VK. Exciting, entertaining, and fun as all heck, but not clean enough to win. I doubt though that anyone cared about them not winning, either in the corps or in the stands. They weren't the best out there, but they were the ones that made the lists of classic shows over the winner that year. There are enough shows out there that everyone can pick their favorite and the one they think is the best.

The winners of the Academy Awards and The People’s Choice Awards are rarely ever the same. The Academy Awards are determined by internal means where the Hollywood cohort congratulate and complement themselves; The People’s Choice Awards, however, are determined by sampling the people who actually pay to watch those movies. This begs a question: Which group is correct and qualified in their assessment of 'Best Movie', 'Best Actor', etc…; the group evaluating themselves or the people who pay to watch those movies? Answer: Both groups are absolutely 100% correct according to the rules, regulations, and means of evaluation within their respective competitions. So, if DCI wants a closed system like the Academy Awards, which is the current system, that is fine; and if DCI wants to add in an element of the audience evaluating the corps with their input affecting the rankings that is fine also. Nevertheless, no matter the system the rankings will still be mere opinion based on given set evaluation rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI1ylg4GKv8

I know I can't be the only one getting annoyed by these "I'm leaving drum corps forever" threads. Is anyone expected to care? Just move on quietly and save us all the time and effort.

He was to Sky what Harvey was to the Hurcs ... :-)

Seems like your confused about what you actually want from DCI. Be "Competive Entertainment Sport" to fill stadiums or accept that fact that we "Artistic Intellectual" that will never fill a stadium. "they are smart enough to realize their place in the commercial world of ticket sales is in the realm of smaller venues" Would you rather pay $100 dollars to see the Blue Man Group in Lucas Oil Stadium or in 500 person dark theater? Blue Man was designed for a theater not a football stadium. I mean sure less people see the Blue Man Group a year than watch Football in Stadiums but it really has more to do with the kind of spectacle being observed and how many can actually appreciate the spectacle at a time. Blue Man group will never fill a stadium because it is not DESIGNED to fill a stadium. Drum Corps is a spectacle that can only be enjoyed live on a football field, and on top of that only 1 side of a football field. If I ever saw a football stadium full during a drum corps show I would know that at the very least 2/3 of the audience members are getting poor experience! Generally, depending on the design of the stadium, we can have no more than 34,000 per show on the "side" that can actively enjoy a show. That is the basic cap (with some exceptions of course) for how many people can enjoy a drum corps show live at a time (and I'm being very liberal with this number since a seat on the end zone would fall in this category but be awful seats!) We're not in a football stadium because we aren't "smart enough to realize" our place in the commercial world of ticket sales. It's because that is venue and will continue to be our venue in the near future.

You said 5% of their score. 5% of Madison's 2010 Finals score is 4.45. No, they wouldn't have passed the Blue Devils. But it would have made a big difference in their Finals placement. Would have bumped them from 10th to 6th.

Do you really want me to name real names here? I don't think that would be proper to do so lets just leave it where it is. Why is it that so many DCP members spoke out against allowing band instruments in DCI, yet you find it hard to believe that some old school Madison Scout alumni don't like it either?

Hmmm ... reminds me ... I have to fertilize my lawn when the weather breaks ... :-)

Think about this relationship: MiM = DCI YEA! = BOA Now connect the dots and think about the relationships. Is MiM running band shows? No, they're not. YEA! is running the band shows under the auspices of MiM. Does MiM provide "local volunteers"? No they don't. YEA! takes care of that. So what does MiM provide? As I understand their announcement, MiM provides the high-level corps directors and staff to be on hand at the show to provide feedback, guidance, clinic training, etc Now, put that in the context of DCI and BOA. Will DCI provide local volunteers? No, BOA does that. What does DCI provide? They provide the high-level corps directors and staff to be on hand at the show to provide feedback, guidance, clinic training, etc. I suggest that DCI formalize its relationship with BOA in the same way that MiM has formalized the relationship with YEA! YEA! wants to broaden its reach and so does BOA. If this is a great idea, then DCI should FINALLY take seriously MiM's contention that this is a good thing and use the example to benefit the whole activity. Don't get wrapped up in DCI running band shows (or providing volunteers, etc) - MiM doesn't plan to run band shows, either. It seems to me that the biggest drawback to this plan would be that MiM shows will judge under the USBands sheets which are more aligned with BOA's sheets than is DCI's sheets. But remember that MiM is not using "their sheets" either, so DCI using BOA sheets at band competitions is no different.

disaster.....5% would change outcomes and also make it nothing more than a popularity contest which could have nothing to do with who is best

We ain't on a tic system anymore! 20/20 isn't perfect, just poor numbers management!

99%?! Implying that over 70 million people know what drum corps is!? We would be so lucky!

While for the sake of discussion it's easy to simply say "DCI" in vague terms we need to remember that DCI is made up of 22 very different corps that perform during the same performance. And you say that DCI needs to choose between two supposedly opposite ideas: "Entertainment Competitive Sport" and "Artistic Intellectual Engagements". And I say... why? There are 22 world class corps and 12 corps at finals so why can't each corps explore either side of your dichotomy during a performance? Yes, they can and they have. The Blue Devils and Crown provide one end of the spectrum while Madison and Surf provide the other. The make up of drum corps fans is far more diverse than the make up of football fans. A football fan can actively enjoy a game even from one that doesn't have his home team playing. But if I ask you to sit through a corps show you dislike, it's a different story. The answer to these questions is not through generalizations and categories but through variety and details.Your brake down of the numbers of tickets filling venues is also meaningless because your argument in classifying these two dichotomies has made the distinctions of those things categorized meaningless. "Entertainment Competitive Sport" you say fills stadiums but it's not because of that incredibly vague description that people fill the stadiums. They fill the stadium because it's "football" or "basketball" or "baseball" and not "women's soccer" or "swimming" which don't fill stadiums but are still magically within the same category. The people that full up "football" stadiums are different than those that fill up "baseball" stadiums. So your argument that DCI should "dive fully into Entertaining Competitive Sport" is moot because you've generalized the terms and the success of such spectacles described in those terms so much that it's practically meaningless. Drum Corps cannot be generalized and there is no intellectual or syntactical merits for doing so. Drum Corps should focus on variety and they should focus on meeting all the needs of the fans that enjoy them which cannot be split into two or even one general category. The movie industry and the video game industry both have the block buster mass market hits and the independent/indie elements as well. Some of the indie elements end up becoming major block busters. And some supposedly created block busters become flops. These industries are driven by creatives passion and of course money/entertainment. But not exclusively. The content creators have there own motives But that personal incentive does not actually affect how the audiences react to their content. We're just glad that we have content creators! I see drum corps in this way more than I see it through sport analogies. The success of these industries comes from different genres and styles and aesthetics and stories with new twists to keep the audience engaged. Movies don't just have the same presentation every year but do have the occasional remake of classics. And games attempt to find innovative game mechanics and stories while still embracing the past and it's roots. Drum corps needs to be like that and not be ashamed of the wide variety it can offer intellectually, aesthetically, emotionally through innovative and traditional means.

You mean like Drumline?! Wow, that's so cool!!

Favorite has to be Crossmen 2012. That trumpet solo in the opener oh my gosh.

I don't know if you meant that to be funny but, at least to me, it was...

Huh... I already staff a SoundSport ensemble that plays on G horns only... You're a little late to the chase there, bub. We'll see what the audience wants. Only time will tell. Oh, nicely done.

I don't think it's really competition quite yet like MiM versus BOA... WGI Winds would operate in the Winter/Spring Sound Sport and DCI would operate in the Summer MiM/BOA/Local Circuit would operate in the Fall. No overlap, but now everyone can do marching arts year round.

Huh... I already staff a SoundSport ensemble that plays on G horns only... You're a little late to the chase there bub. We'll see what the audience wants. Only time will tell. But this guy has given up on DCI corps because of their constant program changes. Perhaps you too should staff and/or start a corps that is as avant garde as you wish. "Make people think" during the show and all that crap that most people don't give two you know what's about. Drum corps is an art form designed for entertainment. Many of today's shows are better suited as background music to a black tie gala. Please, go take your ideals of some "cutting edge modern" show and petition them to someone who cares about this new style of boring program. It's all about greed regardless of what you say. An unsustainable tour model, elitist mentality from performers and staff, and this push to make the audience "think" has pushed many the casual observer of drum corps out the door. But that is not what this topic is about. People just want to know why highly competitive British and US brass bands don't have to constantly evolve and change instrumentation to stay competitive.

This is the future for today's Open Class drum corps. The economic sense of running a summer program just isn't there, but this would allow those with smaller, local membership bases to compete in a format that lends itself to their size and time constraints. And some of these independent units could compete in a Summer League version of this under DCI's auspices, if DCI took the next step and created it. SoundSport was always a logo and a general idea looking for a structure; have WGI create the competitive structure for winter, tweak it for the summer performances, and you could have year-round drum corps for those who want to compete but don't want to have to spend $400k a year to do so (and more units for local show promoters to use in creating their lineups).

Hmmmmm... we shall see. Aimachi is doing a wind ensemble demonstration and they are Independent not Scholastic. Also, while Royal Sound currently just has younger youth involved from the Cincinnati tri-state area, they are also Independent and not attached to any particular school.

I've been wanting to see an indoor marching brass and percussion (and potentially guard) circuit since like 2008. I should've pitched the idea back then.

There are several competitive brass bands in my city (yes, in the USA) and certainly they are more cutthroat than a DCI corps to make it into. One in particular hasn't had significant changeovers of personnel in the 30 years it has performed. The majority of musicians in any of these brass bands are educators or well-known local musicians. Many have ties with the Ohio State University School of Music and got their collegiate experience playing in a brass band by marching in the OSU marching band. The OSU band though is far from a traditional brass band though. For example, the high brass uses trumpets, flugels, and Eb cornets, the mid voice is mellophones instead of alto horns, there are only American style baritones, not separate baritones and Euphoniums, and there are no Eb tubas, just Bb Sousaphones. Oh, and the instruments that read bass clef, read bass clef, unlike trombones, baritones, and Euphs in a British brass band. I can't imagine, other than for some sort of personal aspirations of the voting directors, why DCI has changed its instrumentation roughly every 10 years since the 1930s: 30s: unlock the G-D piston 40s: slip slide tuning slide 50s: rotor to F/F#/E (baritone only) 60s: piston to F, rotor to F# 70s: two vertical pistons 80s: stable period of two pistons, begin experimentation with Bb horns and third valves welded down 90s: three vertical pistons (four for contra) 00s: any key marching brass (piston valve limit dropped) 10s: any brass instrument Look at the instrumentation changes of the OSU band: 1934: conversion to all brass 1938: slide trombones replaced with tromboniums 1980: tromboniums replaced by slide trombones 1996: alto horns replaced by mellophones 1999: bass trombones replace 6 tenor trombones And that's it. I can't speak on the changes of the British brass band instrumentation, but I'm sure it hasn't changed that greatly in the past 50 years or so. To me, it seems like drum corps is an art form constantly trying to be in an image crisis. Some of the best shows in my opinion came out of the 80s and 90s. Why change for the sake of change? If something works, and the people like it, there is no reason to change it. If the people start protesting against something, then perhaps it should be looked it and reviewed. I didn't hear about massive demonstrations and wailing and gnashing of teeth because corps wanted three valves, or Bb horns, or Sousaphones. The only people whining and griping are the corps directors, not the alumni, fans, and members. Unfortunately only the directors have any real power, and they cried because they felt stifled by two valves, G horns, and not having a trombone... really? If the OSU director decided to put woodwinds back in the band, the alumni would likely stop supporting the band and petition the university to terminate the director. Something similar would likely happen in a British brass band if a director decided to add CC tubas or trumpets. Instead, DCI has perpetuated this stereotype of "keeping up with the Jonses." Corps vote on a rule, and then if it passes, everyone scrambles to follow the new rule, lest they be docked unfairly by the judges who seem to only further this awful stereotype. That happens both in DCI and DCA. A G bugle hornline will never win a championship in either because that's not what the ruling bodies want. Just wait, soon corps will be penalized for not having lines of trombones, choosing to stay with marching tubas, etc. In the end, it's not about the kids, or the alumni, or the fans. It's about furthering some ideal that can never really be achieved because the competitive circuits are so blinded by greed.

Don't speak for all of us! I have talked to a lot of alumni that don't care or are in favor of the rule change and only a few that are upset. MYNWA

I'll be a homer and go with Crossmen 2012. It was a fun show, but more importantly, it got them back into finals (if only for a year), and charged up the alumni base a great deal!!! But I also liked Colts 1994 show a lot.

Something I found a bit interesting (I was only peripherally listening) - it seemed Hop really didn't like the choreography/body movement the horns do now, but he admitted they do it because they 'have to' to get the demand up. Also spoke a bit about the Cadets don't go "as far" with it due to the uniforms and somewhat needing to project the military roots of the uniform and certain movements wouldn't really fit with that nor would be easy to do in the unis. In general it seemed to me they have quite a bit of internal arguments about watering down the brass to accommodate the visual vs. the other way around. Something musically really clean all of a sudden gets "choreography" added and its dirty and just unable to be cleaned up.. and in a lot of cases sounded like the visual wins out.

I arranged their version for my band when I was a band director back in the 70's. For the band I work with today, I arranged it for a competition parade we did about 10 years ago, the Apple Blossom Festival in VA. That tune never gets old for me!