Leaderboard

I agree with you. But on the other hand it's infuriating and it sucks that so many people that did nothing wrong have to suffer because of the actions of a few (the few in this case being the predators) I say that because if we went this route, it would suck for the 18-19 year old that wants to march drum corps but maybe can't do a full world class tour because of other commitments, so a local open class corps fits more of their schedule. Not to mention goodbye Blue Devils C. But I get it and I agree with you. Just sucks that it only takes a few "Bleep Bleep Curse Curse"........ to ruin it for others. But if it has to be done, then so be it.

You can’t convict without due process. But you can absolutely make allegations. That’s what makes them allegations. And there is an entire range of social behaviors — including many forms of bullying, especially online — that the police can’t really do anything about. It’s not a cure-all. Victims fail or are slow to report for plenty valid reasons that even the police and lawmakers have grown aware of. So it’s more complicated than “tell the police.” Anyway - people want to feel like these organizations have their safety and best interests at heart. That’s what’s at stake. The police aren’t going to help you with that. DCI apparently can’t even help you with that.

Having raised 4 kids and now watching my grandkids grow up, there is a BIG difference in emotional maturity between a 14/15-year-old and an 18-year-old – generally speaking. An 18-year-old is much more equipped mentally and physically to be able to deal with, report, and say no potential physical, mental, and sexual abuse – be it member to member, or instructor to member. It wouldn’t solve the problem in its entirety, but it would remove the most vulnerable from the clutches of the pervs that continually infect the activity. In retrospect, what were/are we thinking? Packing busloads of children, hormonal teenagers, and young adults, together for weeks at a time on the road cross-country in close quarters without much, if any parental supervision. And we wonder why this keeps happening.

But what would 18 do. Allegedly the accusations were made by many over 18 but still members. What people don't talk about much is member to member issues or member doing their hardest to get to some staff. Now one can easily say staff should know better which would be a very true statement BUT remember some staff can also be very young. If there are those who believe this part is rare is only fooling themselves. I've seen it and had to deal with it not just in the summer but on the WGI level. It is a directors job to NOT just leave things to staff to watch ( which can be the cat watching the canary ) but to put their foot down and be willing to lose either a staff person or a member who doesn't comply with the rules in EVERY aspect. A good director isn't just a figure head to make speeches and pep talks but one who serves, and protects all involved and the integrity of the corps or winter programs. JMO

Do you think it’s enough? How about implementing this policy: there shall be a minimum of TWO adults when in the presence of a sole minor. And, to the corps members, if you EVER come across one adult and one minor alone in private together, you are expected to report it to (insert the correct single point of contact) immediately. All persons will be assumed innocent but out an abundance of caution we will investigate every occurrence. I suppose many will consider this “too hard” to implement. Well, how important to you is the activity’s survival? Would you not take whatever measures are necessary? This is a solid policy that is used in many organizations.

The safe sport training is activity wide. As a staff member, the amount of training I receive is far and beyond what I have to do for any other activity I’m involved in. (Coaching youth baseball and volunteering with the high school musicals for set construction). It’s also far more than our 15 minute sexual harassment training taken yearly for work. It’s probably never enough, but there’s frequent reminders, spelled out in my teaching contracts, in separate policy documents. It’s taken very seriously by the two drum corps I have recently taught and I’ve heard no different from my friends and past members teaching across the activity. There’s some people that will never be satisfied or convinced that it’s enough. That’s fine, but it’s a huge improvement over what existed five years ago. I’m not sure what more could be done right now but making the minimum age 18 would be best in my mind.

I'm aware. AFAIK, DCI-wide, it's a one hour video created by the USCSS. Great. But as I said when they first implemented it, it's only a start and not nearly enough. We've gotten anon reports that the members themselves have found it ineffective, going so far as to use the term "Safe Sport" as a code word for predators in their midst on tour. It's also not enough if staff aren't reinforcing those reporting channels or don't feel confident using themselves. Or if abusers have managed to weasel their way in still, which happens. Training, especially weak, limited training, is only a small piece of the education pie here. Also, if the training is generic enough to share activity wide, then it's probably not going to point to organization-specific channels. Another problem: the generic training is easy to check off and forget when you're in the moment, facing an abuser or survivor. This is likely why SOA developed their own training in-house, I imagine, because their reporting system is more robust and the generic version wouldn't have helped. And yet, we're still seeing breaks in the system, even if this is a rare case of a false accusation! That's how complicated this work is. Even the work done so far is clearly not enough if we're still getting young members who are potentially only going to social media, or who are asking reddit what they should do. Also, to correct myself: the generic training isn't activity wide, as Terri pointed out in the Cadets bankruptcy thread... It. Is. Not. Good. Enough. Yet.

I here you. We've already eliminated (hopefully) staff/member transgressions. However, is there in fact a power differential between two baritone players for example, who are 6 months apart in birthdays? How about a couple color guard boys who are both 17 until one has a birthday the day of Allentown? I know a wonderful couple (both drummers) where the boy aged out and wanted to be on staff, and he was hired. But, his gf still had one year to go in the bass line, and BAC leadership told them that was not going to happen. So as a couple, they discussed it in the off season and decided that she would age out at BD(which she did) while he stayed and taught at BAC. Just bringing this up because sometimes we all forget that rules affect people in real time. My heart goes out to them but my brain says the drum corps did the right thing.

Well said Chief. Had a lot more stuff to say but just staying out of it. I will say our 17 year old who will do his second year of world class has benefitted from a fantastic organization and has experienced something he will fondly remember for the rest of his life. We also have been lucky to be part of his journey and it's been an amazing journey to join.

Angels and Demons is the only right answer. Top 10 all time DCI.

Just putting it out there that 1996 is so underrated.

DCI corps all have to adhere to the training guidelines. If one is not, report it. Alumni corps now have to take the same Safesport training. I had friends that participated in the Bluecoats alumni corps. Feel free to confirm with any of those 500 people. I’ll base my knowledge on actual experience of actively teaching in the activity right now.

That policy is already in place. I have to sign my employment agreement with that specially spelled out and covered in training.

What about kids who are not interested in, or do not have the ability to move to WC, and wish to age out of OC? You just say too bad kid, you’re too old at 18, 19? Now go to a corps with a significant jump in time requirements and tuition.

It never ends. So depressing.

Thanks. I wish you well.

The resource is from 2021-22. Social media is not best practice, true, but something desperate survivors/reporters do. Your verging on victim blaming when you 1. assume they haven't gone to the police and 2. assume that what you know the circumstances well enough to tell the survivor/reporter what to do. We don't know if this person is a survivor or not. There's a very real possibly that they are. If they aren't, which again, we cannot know, then they are risking the survivors' safety by outing them. To that end, if true, and I've agreed with you, social media can be detrimental. But again, it's a desperate act. They further report that they have blown the proper whistleblowing channels, but didn't feel heard. That would lead anyone to desperation. I'm trying not to make this personal. You speak with a voice similar to the detractors in the reddit thread, so I emphasized what I and others see there, which is uninformed people coming down on a reporter. Trust me, I'll implicate you directly if it's crucial in doing so. If I don't do that, it's best to assume I'm not accusing you of anything. Thank you for this reminder. But I'm not doing this to convince them. I'm doing this to counter them for other survivors out there who may have trouble finding their voice and language to use.

The Navy should have been saying that saying back in 1991. The "Tailhook" scandal shook the Navy to its very foundation. By the time I got to Boot Camp in 1997, we were receiving training and lectures on it.

Follow the SSI model in which no young person, minor or adult, can give consent within a power differential. It's backed by science.

That's the problem. There is no nationwide age of consent. They vary by state...some are 16 or 17, and a few southern states are, incredibly, lower. I don't know how you enforce constantly changing laws on a group that travels 10,000 miles in 60 days...

I believe that shifting the age groups will only reorganize predators and lead them to modify their grooming techniques. And it only shifts liabilities for organizations instead of addressing the root issue... The ultimate problem is non consensual relationships within power differentials here. (Noting here that minors, legally, cannot give consent... but SSI training is also clear that neither can legal young adults within power differentials in sports. Perhaps the law should change to acknowledge this, but until it does, organizations should keep this in mind.) Specific age comes into play because of the law, not necessarily because 18 years olds are suddenly more mature and capable than 17.5 year olds. The age change is an important legal marker, but SSI regards this differently than what's being discussed here. They are clear, as I have been, that science has shifted to acknowledge the 18-25 age group as "late adolescence." This age group is still not fully adult in brain or body and deserve specific protections that, in most practicalities, mimic that of minors. It's one thing to say your policy protects minors or young adults. I don't think policies can. Only trained, weathered, compassionate mandated reporters can do that. Changing the age group is just a policy change, and not enough to limit these issues.

Not disagreeing but I'll push back a bit..the 15/16 year old is far different than we were BITD...but I'll also say there is a huge part of the other side leaving staff out that present issues which many seem to forget. AS I said whatever side presents bad behavior should be illuminated no matter who it is. THIS falls on the shoulders of the director and should at all times have eyes in every direction at all times. Youre right...what were we thinking but different times. We weren't thinking

As I said in SoA thread- many if not most youth sports leagues have minimum & age requirements. A 16 yr old isn’t allowed to be in a T-ball league

Raising age to 18 would mean everyone is a legal adult & able to consent thus getting rid of adult-minor ‘consensual’ (where minor is not legally allowed to consent) problems. There would still be the problem of non-consent staff & member as well as non-consent member & member assaults. Raising age to 18 could help. Not a 100% solution, but at least a partial solution.

Good point. You'd probably have to allow OC to be 14-21 Let WC be 18-22 (23). If you're 17 but will be 18 before May 1 then you can march, and if you turn 23 anytime after May 1 you can still march I'm not sure any of this stops the issues with predators, idiots, or even with bullying, hazing and many other issues. What it could do is really help OC corps in growth and popularity. And though the age limit for OC could be 21 I think most of the kids would be in the range of 15-17. It takes a great amount of oversight and knowledge to work with groups where the age range can be from 14-21.

It would protect those under 18.

And if my 18th birthday is in July, must I transfer from the OC corps to a WC corps that day, and learn a new show mid-season? Or more likely, I simply cannot march either OC or WC that season because no one will have me?

We have long been at the point where working with young people requires that absolutely every interaction be strictly about business. As a public school music teacher, I can tell you that this is the only safe policy. There is simply no room for anything else but the lesson. So long as this is not acceptable (and it isn't for many), no amount of training and policy will help. Music, marching... these are the topics. All analogous teaching and interaction must flow from there. Making things 'fun' requires a smile on one's face and an affable approach... but there can be no room for any outside influence (social, political, or remotely off-color). Awful as this may seem to many... I promise you, it is a wonderful model for teaching and learning. It wasn't like that when I was at Bluecoats over 20 years ago. While there was nothing bad going on that I could see, there was plenty that could have been problematic, provided a minor shift of perspective. It's probably still like this most places (and obviously downright horrible in some, as we hear frequently).

I saw and felt ill. And some the replies made me feel worse

This is not accurate. The only #### was from the idiot "in charge". Nearly everyone else there was doing good work in SPITE of him. Firmly convinced YEA would still be around if the d###head had stayed out of the way. Instead he was poison to everything and everyone he touched. USBands was growing incredibly well despite the irresponsible draining of it every season to please the whims of a rapist. The glassdoor stuff is almost entirely about the rapist and his abusive mismanagement.

I'm grateful to you and all you've done, and apologize for indicating otherwise in the past in my ignorance.

i don't care about what gets kept or removed on reddit, but at this point, all you do with victim blamers is reinforce their beliefs if you engage with them in any way. just sayin.

Top hit: https://evawintl.org/best_practice_faqs/false-reports-percentage/ Feel free to post international, reliable sources reflecting otherwise. Best practice is to protect reporters first, then investigate. You're a broken record because you're not bringing in any resources that counter best practices and research. These state that the criminal justice system often retraumatizes survivors, which is a huge factor in their decision to go to authorities or not. I've never said don't go to the police. It's part of the many possible responses a reporter can take. Coming down hard on a survivor for assuming they didn't take the step you think they should isn't helpful. I don't disagree here. But I do have the heart to sympathize with young people who may not understand that. I don't jump down their throats for not thinking like a fully grown adult who knows the full spectrum of options available to them. To do otherwise would be retraumatizing, which I do my best not to engage in.

1. I dunno anymore about that. 2. They absolutely needed to quash that. Even IF it is true you can't just accuse people without due process. I feel like a broken record with you on this. There is a right way to go about this and it's the police. If you can go on social media, you can file a report with the police. If you are going on reddit without filing a police report and are encouraging this...just no. You can actually hurt your case doing this.

Ew. Now the post has been removed by mods. That's gotten increasingly rare over there so I'm a bit surprised. OP and subsequent posters are reporting really bad stuff... I think what people don't understand is 1. how rare false accusations are statistically and 2. even in the rare case it's false, the reporters and org still have a very serious problem on their hands that shouldn't be censored automatically. 1000 yikes! My first post on reddit reporting my abuse was censored as well so I feel for OP on that way as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mandarins end up finishing in 5th place, this year. The Blue Devils, Bluecoats, Carolina Crown, and the Boston Crusaders will have 1-4; but the Mandarins definitely have the momentum and resources to claim the 5th spot in the top tier.

Finally, a positive Cadets thread - one that is highlighting and honoring the legendary stamp they've left in the activity. The other Cadets thread is a super buzzkill 😡 I didn't start in the activity until I was 15 and I would have never made the cut for Cadets 1994 guard but that's the show that showed me just how clean a guard could be. 1996 was another WOW factor when it came to the guard so I made the jump in 97 - my years with the Cadets were AMAZING! It was hard - they pushed us HARD back then but it shaped the person I became. 1996 Cadets just had it all for me and will forever be my favorite show, even more so than winning in 1998.

A statement that the membership was revoked and why. A declaration of commitment to safety. An explanation of DCI's values and what the activity actually stands for. A demonstration of public leadership from the top down of what their priorities are and what member corps are required and and expected to do to protect minors and young adults. Off the top of my head. Sorry for the angry soapbox. Mike

Apparently someone zoomed in on an image from Mackey's social and re-entered by hand into a score program to try to get early access to Mackey's work for Crown. Mackey saw it and just posted a bit of the full score!

Oh I hear you. I have ALOT to say, but like you for the most part have steered clear of this convo. I just hate when the actions of a few ruins it for others. If raising age limits like what's being discussed was to be implemented, your boy would have been impacted, and he would have missed on a great experience last summer with Pac Crest since he would have been "Underage" In the Navy, we have a saying........"Don't be that guy!"......... Wish I could scream that to everyone, and they all listen.

Following that "logic", we could just throw all victims and reporters out of all corps. Make it an operating policy to do that. Look, no abuse victims in drum corps! I thought the point of the youth activity was to... benefit youth.

Hmmm…. That line of reasoning did not pan out very well for the Catholic Church. You cannot tell me “nobody knew.” That’s just false on its face. I’m afraid DCI might be in significant trouble here. The “I was in charge but the rules didn’t make me do anything” defense is a loser.

BUMP! Really looking forward to what Mandarins have in store this summer! My son has 2 HS buddies that will be on the field with Mandarins this summer and I'm excited to follow their first summer with the corp. They've been at our home a few times recently with my son catching up, watching DCI performances and eating up all of my food (🤣). I stay out of their way, but love to hear them talk shop from a distance. Some of us "dinosaurs" tend to think that they don't appreciate the corps and shows of old, but you'd be surprised. They respect and appreciate where the activity came from and how it has evolved. They spend hours watching and listening to performances from the 80's and 90's which tickles my heart because those eras spawned the bug that bit me. They are great kids and I'm excited for them to join the Mandarins family this summer!

I think your opinion here is very valid and I imagine this is how many Cadets alumni and many volunteers feel. This is probably how they should feel. My heart says "NO no no no, I don't want to lose this historic corps!" But my head says it was time for Garfield/The Cadets to be put to rest. Just too many lawsuits, too many mistakes, too many victims. There were likely going to be more lawsuits. The damage by a director, a puppet board, and perhaps a few others was too much for too long. Too many people were harmed by the supposed "adults" in the room. Too many victims...and those victims deserve praise for coming forward and they deserve justice and help. If that means the corps goes away then so be it. As others have said it is complicated because we will miss the shows and all the hard work of the marchers and volunteers and the teachers who did things the right way. We will miss the history. But it was time. Pains me to say it...but it was time. The "adults" in the room had chance after chance and chance to make things right. The SHIP SUNK!!! Too many leaks and a few torpedo shots. In the end the damage from 1982-2017 was too much.

while recording for DCAF tonight, an alum was on, and said in this situation it was like a loved one with a terminal disease...we knew in the fall it was coming, we just didn't know when. but when it happened it hurt a lot. i've paraphrased, but i got the spirit of the statement. and for as snarky as we can be at DCAF, this one wasn't super snarky.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooo................. Any chance the DCP admins will bring back the thread they removed of my pointing out Cadets were in regulatory violation of state law by failing to register as a charity?

That is so epically funny.

He did. After the Cadets announcement, he decided to put all of his eggs into one basket for auditions. He really wanted to work under Matt Harloff and be a part of the Crown brass line. He worked extremely hard leading up to the first camp and was given a lead mello contract soon after. He's really enjoyed the camps so far and we're all exited for him and the coming season. Here we go again, Chief!