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I earmarked this show early on as one I might go to. Why? It would be my only chance to see Sun on-field this season, and I really wanted to get a good look at them. I looked at the tickets for the center top, and well, I did get a bit of sticker shock. I decided to think about everything and weigh it out before I got uppity, and I'm glad I did. Let's start with all of that, since it's something to weigh of you go to Clifton and want a really good seat. Yes, the VIP ticket at Clifton was more than the cost of similar seating that I got at D-Town, Scranton, and for Big Sounds combined. Again, I thought about it, and spent some time at work thinking about it for most of July. Where I work, one needs something positive to think about. I figured with the size of the contest, the food voucher, the VIP parking, the Brothers of Funk, Alumni exhibitions, it dawned on me. The Bushwackers were trying to stage an event, something more than the normal. I figure that I've paid about the same price for a VIP ticket to Mid-Ohio for the IndyCar/TUDOR races and for cheap seats at NASCAR, so, let's give it a try and see what it's like. I'm convinced the VIP tickets had very good value. I'm sure some folks are thinking- "HOW?" I'll tell you what I figured: Parking, which from observation is a bit of a ripping pan around this stadium, was worth 10 to 15 bucks. I got a place right next to the entrance tunnel. I got out really quickly as a result. To pay to park for some top end big city restaurants , about that much. A parking ticket if you screw up when you try and park or try and get away with it, would cost a lot more, and there were Police cruisers making sure the area around the stadium was safe and okay, and also to by my guess tag any illegal parkers in the surrounding neighborhood. You get a nice 10 dollar concession stand voucher. The food at this show beats Scranton's by a mile. It's excellent as band/Corps show stadium food goes. I've usually eaten when I get to D-Town and Reading so I'm not hungry, so I really can't compare though the grill at D-Town smells really good. For my 10 bucks, I got a very nice quality Cheeseburger (It had to have been- low quality burger meat makes me really, really ill since the Gall Bladder issues...) and get this- they offer a 64 ounce bottle of Iced Tea of your choice of flavors with a couple big cups of ice. Man, they know the way to a Baritone Player's heart. Given the length of the day and the heat, it was perfect. You also got 6 free raffle tickets worth 6 bucks with very nice prizes (Cruise voucher- nice 32 inch TV!). Aaaaand.... a 25% off coupon at the Bushwacker swag table. I got a nice Bush T-Shirt for about 5 bucks off retail. Right there is 30 bucks in value out of the ticket. I'm not done. Factor in 2 sets of Al Chez and the Brothers of Funk. (Very fun,superb, BTW) What's a ticket to see them normally gonna cost yah? My guess is, 20? More? They're worth at least that. The stadiums very, very well kept and clean (I've seen some NJ/NY/PA HS stadiums that are not and look like a war-torn zone from the Video Game World of Tanks after my King Tiger's rumbled though the stands and blasted the concession stand with my long 88 because some opponent's trying to hide behind it with his Sherman...), the team running it are every bit as prepared, helpful, kind, and professional as I have ran into with the shows out my way, so yes, I think it's a very good value. Expensive, yes, but still a very good value. I wanted to make sure I spelled that out as positively as I could for everyone and to make sure at least from my personal perspective that the Bush people know that at least one person feels that way for certain. A lot of us old timers will tell war stories about some of the really, really.. well... not-so good venues we competed in with DCA and other circuits in the past. We laugh about it now and shake our heads, but looking at the experience now as compared to some of the shows BITD, it's so much better. CRAZY better, and I am appreciative of that. there may be less contests- but at least the corps members today won't be talking about marching a show with 22 people in the stands in some ramshackle stadium where the PA system squawks feedback and the lights explode in showers of sparks during the performances. Okay- I've set up the show. What happened there? A LOT. I'll get this done later, but I need to take care of some things. Please be patient!

Cadets didn’t get hosed, they stalled and got passed. They never got it super clean so failed to get the GE bump. Also, in its final form, there was a lull mid-show, seemed long and the Power of 10 thing became really worn. Fourth was about right, perhaps third but no way was it in the top 2 Seems like the past few years Cadets have had trouble closing the deal I enjoyed the show regardless of placement Anyway, every year at this time some show is declared the most difficult, the best ever…the season is the best ever, the marchers are better than ever usually it’s not the case. I understand the enthusiasm, glad you like it but a little perspective will make it apparent where these things fall

I'm not going to needle anyone who thinks LPs are groovy or pit them against those who beam about CDs. Frankly, I'm still reeling over the magnetic attraction some have for tape.

Hey folks, here's a quick and dirty review of my opinions from the action in Rockmart, Georgia tonight. I took several pictures but unfortunately the lighting played games with my phone's camera and most of them were bad. I've included a couple that were usable. Atlanta CV Alumni Ensemble (exhibition): Atlanta, GA - 9 brass, 1 conductor Brand new this year, the CV Alumni Ensemble consists of several early CV alumni who have kept up their playing. They presented the national anthem at tonight's show. There was talk floating around CV of starting an alumni corps and I believe this is the first step towards that goal. Southern Knights (exhibition): Birmingham, AL - 14 brass, 3 percussion The Southern Knights return for their 3rd and final show of 2015. Just like in Woodstock, the brass was electric and gave us a nice sizzling g bugle sound. New for this performance was a fantastic wailing contrabass solo featuring Joe Murphy, widely-acclaimed tuba soloist and brass caption head of the corps. These folks will surely be a hit in the Class A scene next season. Cincinnati Tradition (Class A): Cincinnati, OH - 14 brass, 12 battery, 6 pit, ~10 guard, 1 DM The drumline really stole the show here. They are very obviously the strongest section in the corps and they play a very prominent role in this show. I'm a horn guy so I don't understand the intricacies of marching percussion, but there were several moments (especially from the bass line) that made a very good impression on me. There were some strong moments in the show design with the guard split into two groups, each spinning a different flag in keeping with Tradition's 2-sided show theme. At the same time, the horn drill looked quite odd. The drill certainly wasn't doing the horns any favors, with the small line being spread across nearly 40 yards of field space at some points. It was a little puzzling to watch the corps be so separated during big ensemble moments. I feel as if the hornline could have achieved a higher level of excellence in ensemble playing if their drill would have kept them close together. The last moments of the show displayed a nice full ensemble moment where the horns finally gave us a big sound the rest of the show was missing. IMO, field coverage should not take precedence over setting musicians up for a good listening environment. The line gelled well in close quarters and I wish they had more moments like that. ALLIANCE (Class A): Atlanta, GA - 23 brass, 18 battery, 8 pit, ?? guard, 1 DM + 1 conductor I said in my last review that I really enjoyed the brass. I'll say it again because they play very well. There is some very, very excellent brass writing and execution going on in this drum corps and it's impressive what they do with their small hornline. Of course, being ALLIANCE the drumline is also excellent. Again, I know very little about drumming but they were the clear winner in Class A percussion tonight and I would expect to be a serious contender for the Class A percussion title at championships. This is an excellent line taught by some of the best in the area, and the corps' connection to the Atlanta Quest organization does them a lot of favors as well. During the course of the show, a tenor player lost his shako and I nervously watched at least 5 brass players kick it around before a guard member scooped it up at the end of a movement. Fortunately no one was injured. Brand new for this run, the horns and drums have a new sash that they flipped open towards the end of the production to expose a bright red color to contrast with the icy blue that dominates the visual scheme for most of the show (picture above). Overall, this is a well-programmed show that should be in the running for a Class A title come championship weekend. Tonight's score puts them several points behind the current Class A leader but all that could change when they go head to head. Carolina Gold (Open Class): Greensboro, NC - 28 brass, 21 battery, 11 pit, huge (~30) guard, 1 DM + 1 conductor Gold continued their upswing tonight with a noticeably improved show over DCA Woodstock. The corps came out sans plumes due to an impending thunderstorm. Additionally, the drums have received a new light blue wrap to better fit the wintry theme of the show. The comments I previously made about the hornline were rendered invalid tonight - the horns did a much improved job of projecting and playing confidently, although there were a few noticeable instances of phasing that occurred at several points in the show. Gold's drum major's passion is very evident in his conducting and he is a joy to watch. The guard is massive and dominates the field. As I noted in my last review, they are probably Gold's strong suit as they have been for several years. Very excellent guard work and design throughout this show. Atlanta CV (Open Class): Atlanta, GA - 48 brass, 18 battery, 15 pit, ~30 guard, 2 DM + 2 conductor Homer bias aside, CV truly looked and sounded like they were in a class of their own tonight. Many members and alumni believe this could be the best CV ever and I'd have to agree with them. This is the most well-designed and executed show I personally have ever seen from them. This show is just chock full of GE moments. A notable improvement and enhancement since the last show is new printed eye graphics on the shutter props - these rotate like vertical blinds throughout the show from closed eyes to open eyes, and sometimes at an angle to let the viewer see through the prop to the field behind. Although the timing of the changes is not solid yet, it's an impressive effect that builds anticipation for the impact moments that follow in the seconds after. The brass playing is really, really excellent in this show. If you saw CV live last year, you have an idea of the quality of the hornline that wore the green, red, and black in 2014 and took 4th place in brass during championships. This line is many, many steps ahead of that one. There are loads of high-energy impact moments and section features, good solo work, and very clever horn writing. The whole show is a musical treat and there's lots of stuff to recognize from drum corps in years past. Further carrying the "eyeconic" throwback theme, some guard members don shakos during a feature moment and do a short routine similar to what the guards of the "good old days" would have done. This show score puts CV in 5th place in Open Class. The 4-7 race is very close right now and it's anyone's game, but I believe this show has the potential to give CV their first ever 5th (or even 4th) place finals finish. The Rocketeers (Exhibition): Huntsville, AL - 10 brass, 1 percussion, 1 conductor Tonight's show was a standstill version of their Soundsport program I got to see at DCI Atlanta. It's a fun show with a lot of easily recognizable music and some playful work with props throughout. They play well and present a very crowd-friendly and entertaining show. I hope they can attract enough members to become a full-fledged competing corps in the near future. DCA South can definitely use some more friendly faces. Wouldn't it be great to have a southern division with 6 competing corps next summer?

When it's all said and done, isn't this THE most important statement about attendance

Anyone interested in a slightly biased and positive accentuated review of the Mn. shows?

I always believed Drum Corps Planet had the greatest potential to become DCA's most effective way to communicate with the general public. I still do. Unfortunately, not enough of DCA, as a collective, has taken full advantage. This is a wonderful place of opportunity, but it requires participants. Some who give, and some who receive. One other problem damages this message board and many others. That is, an abundance of posters who use the space for combat. Snarky people grow tiresome. After a time, other participants tend to walk away.

You guys are making it seem as if Cadets had NO chance in hell on medaling. They were only 1 point from silver and 1.75 from gold. Let's not minimize the good things about their show by making the other three much better than they were. The scores don't reflect the other three were pulling far away from Cadets. Either way, it's done. Looking forward to the next season.

Yes and no. No, because the top two seeds are essentially set. It won't much matter who ultimately goes on last in prelims. Third and fourth might swap, but it's not likely they'll change more than that. Yes, because it will affect seeding for 5-13, and *really* impacts the Kidsgrove Scouts. I think DCA wants to avoid the raw deal KS got the last time they were here, so both shows should have stacked panels. Equal advantage scoring shouldn't play a part, at least not between shows.

not to pick nits, but the first sentence is pretty clear. the highest paid attendance in Indianapolis

THAT is my point: there is no real "rest of the world," as this is such a small niche activity. Some are over-scrutinizing and way over-reading into what is a simplistic press release of DCI hyping this year's attendance figures. IMO, it seems a lot more logical to question some of the more broad descriptions in regards to Regional shows & movie theater numbers, and I'm personally curious to know what the live stream figures were like this year in comparison to Fan Network subscriptions. Discussing semantics that really seem fairly obvious seems silly. People are assuming/guessing that there MIGHT be a problem when as far as we know there is not some massive amount of fans who are panicking wondering how 2015 DCI Attendance compares to 1984 Attendance. People are making up problems when there really aren't any in this case. DCI rightly hyped that they had a great year attendance-wise in Indy, and it seems really silly if people want to pick apart the verbiage in their press release to find fault and project world-wide confusion. There are PLENTY of issues involved with DCI to debate about, look for solutions, etc: this is not one of them

Really? 57 pages?

Isolating single sentences in a vacuum in order to prove them problematic, and then later including more sentences from the exact same release that serve to clarify what is now no longer problematic seems self-defeating.

Most accurate post in the thread

No, the press release was not clear. That first sentence you allude to says this: "Drum Corps International (DCI) ended an incredible record-setting national tour with the highest paid attendance in Indianapolis at the World Championship Finals at Lucas Oil Stadium." The way this is written, it says that there was a national tour that was record-setting in some yet-to-be-specified way, and the event with the highest paid attendance of that tour was the last event, the finals in Indianapolis. Later, the press release treats championship week in more detail: "The exceptional statistics throughout the season led perfectly into the 3-day finals in Indianapolis where a record-setting 22,085 fans reveled in an electrifying finish at the Saturday night finals – up an incredible 18.7% over 2014. The 3-night combined paid attendance was up 16.3% over 2014 and each of the three nights were individually the highest paid attendance for that night of the competition – records all around." The first sentence is not clear on whether the record being set is for finals all-time, or just Indianapolis. However, the second sentence states that all three rounds of championships set "records" - not just for Indianapolis, but "for that night of the competition" unconditionally. That is certainly not true for Saturday, and that is why people start referring back to 1981 to point that out. Maybe the writer meant to say that these were records for the Indianapolis-based events, but failed to specify. Without knowing the history (which you deem "irrelevant"), I could not even create such doubt, much less give the writer the benefit of that doubt. Bottom line - DCI has some great attendance news, and atrocious grammar. At least we agree on the former.

Eternal rest grant to them and consolation to their families and Gold.

which is why the activity needs a name change - how about "Outdoor Dance Ensemble with Brass & Drum Accompaniment" ODEBDA Kind of rolls right off your tongue...

Great Job Jay! That show had more drum corps icons and "celebs" than any show besides DCA Championships than I have ever seen. I am talking about from the 60's and 70;s, to judges, instructors, (active and inactive), and great fans! Nice job on this one...having Al Chez and his band was a kicker! DA

Exactly, I feel most people don't understand how innovative and hard Kinetic Noise really was.

Well, there HAS to be a way we can ensure that Crown wins championships. Average the last three shows. Maybe average the entire season. Give BD an automatic -2 point handicap... better make it -3 just to be safe. Play a Dr. Beat real close to BD during warmup every night. Make BD go on first. Let the air out of their tires. Send Scott Johnson to Fort Mill. Whatever it takes, make it happen. That is my "modest" proposal. </sarcasm>

Must have been Ashley Madison.

Mr Blue on the field with the brass mellophone.

i'm thrilled when DCI is successful period. i'll be even more thrilled when they get good at customer service

It seems like there are three different personalities to Jersey Surf and they are caught in an identity crisis: 1. They want to be a serious corps 2. They want to be funny = Velvet Knights/Bridgemen 3. They want to be laid back = Florida Wave Until they figure out who they want to be, they will be on the bottom of World Class with Pioneer.

The issues with our web server have been resolved, and you can again order tickets with a credit card or PayPal through www.bigsoundsinmotion.com. Alternatively, send a check or money order payable to "Big Sounds In Motion" to: Big Sounds In Motion, 15 Sheep Hill Road, Fleetwood, PA 19522. Direct questions: to: bigsoundsinmotion@yahoo.com or 610-987-9460 (BEFORE 9:00 p.m., please!). Reserved seats: $20; General Admission seats: $17. Competing corps are: Reading Buccaneers, White Sabers, Fusion Core, Cadets 2, Carolina Gold, Bushwackers and Erie Thunderbirds. Special Exhibition you won't want to miss by the Reading Buccaneer Alumni Drum & Bugle Corps. There are a lot of battles heating up amongst the corps, so don't miss your chance to see them before they head to championships in Rochester!

All-righty, then. Let;s get to the show and to the pre-contest exhibitions. I'd seen part of the Saint's Brigade program at Profiles in Music in April, and the brass section;s become a lot more confident as musicians. They perform really well thought-out arrangements of old and new chestnuts like "Baroque Samba", "New York State of Mind", , and "Legend of the One-Eyed Sailor". Their percussion's always nice and tight, and their brass soloists do very well. Reilly came on next, and it was hot, and out they came in full uniform- pretty tough for anyone at any age let alone some of the old schoolers who took the field. They hung tough! They're at their best playing the pieces they're best known for like "Danny Boy, It isn't Easy Bein' Green", "Soldier Boy", and "When irish Eyes are Smiling", though their flag presentation segment was nice and on the mark. Next up were Sky's Alumni Corps, and they were a very pleasant surprise. They're much better than when I'd seen them at last year's Grand Prix, their renditions of "Slaughter on 10th Avenue" and "Elks' Parade" were very well done, and the soloists were spot on. I think they're going to make a lot of people happy at the Alumni Spectacular in Rochester with their performance there. The Cabs Alumni have changed things up a bit with a drill style more from the '70's that's not the squad-based linear presentational drill from the previous decade as they usually tend to do. It's pleasant and well-performed. This year, they're doing a rather nifty arrangement of "Bully", "Mexican Hat Dance", a concert of "Echano", the second movement of Rodrigo's "Concierto de Aranjuez" and wrapping up with "Cha Cha Flamenco". They've been further refining their brass sound, but I have to bring up one thing before I forget. There are two very fine percussion features in the program and I finally met John Smith and complimented him personally. They're not trying to stroke out 600 taps per second or just smash and slam their way through these features, they have a fine groove and a real sense of elegance and control when they're out there and it's tasty as all get-out. These guys proved faster is not always better, and really had a very laid back, controlled and musical feel on Saturday. Next up was Al Chez and his Brothers of Funk. Take one great Rhythm Section, 7 good men on brass backing Al up, and 3 great Reed players... and you have a very entertaining mix. Al was extremely hard-working for both sets and worked the crowd as hard as he could, and was lights out spectacular. The videos of his band on YT aren't even close to how good they sound live. Well I did say this was an event, and now, I can finally start talking about the contest! I'll get this up piece by piece until I start nodding off.

you are very welcome. I was honored to do that. I realize Joey could certainly have done this by himself, so when he asked if I would do a duet with him, I asked him to check with you guys if that would be okay, It just happens that Joey was In town so we have the chance to woodshed a little, not only on that but some Arban's stuff and just noodling around. Not many people know that I was Joey's first trumpet teacher, and watched him grow as a young high school player to the monster player he is now. I am very proud of him. I have thanked him also. Thanks for allowing me to be only a small part in the huge event you guys pulled off. Donny

Star 1992. Because America. Message: Star Spangled Banners and Amber Waves, bay-bee.

Or from detractors.

Wonderful review so far and we shared this on our show committee FB page. As John said, we thought outside of the box to host an EVENT, not just a drum corps show. Glad you had such an enjoyable experience and we are already talking about how to make it bigger and better next season. Jay

Thank you BigW! A lot of people put in a lot of time and effort to make this work. We appreciate the fact you appreciated the effort and value for what you got. We tried to think out of the box and did this show the way we did it. Thank you for hitting the nail on the head. In the end, drum corps wins. See you next year!

I'll concur with that, John. This is always the weekend I hate the most. 3 of the Top 4 (right now) will be playing this weekend, so it shouldn't really matter who gets what this coming weekend - EXCEPT KIDSGROVE!! That "first time" read that they got jobbed on was on their first trip here - although after that SNAFU - they've not been overlooked by anyone since..from the folks I talked to last weekend (acting as the chauffeur to MSP) KS is "in it to win it"...Now, that MIGHT be hype, but I'm sure you've all seen stranger things Coming to Rochester - "cautiously optimistic" and waiting for somebody to knock me over - even if it's not one of the so-called "favorites".. SORRY FRAN - looks like the O's took it on the chin again from the Twinkies with a season sweep 7 games to 0.. Still love ya' dude! See the rest of y'all in Rochacha! PEACE! Pat

sorry no fruit with mine, just good old maple syrup

I guess it depends on how picky we're wanting to read into a press release from a drum and bugle corps organization. When DCI says this: I read into that "...highest paid attendance in Indianapolis..." I think it is appropriate to surmise that 1) people who don't know a ton about the long history of DCI paid attendance (read: pretty much everyone, since as it has been said before that DCI attendance figures, particularly paid attendance figures, pre-Dan A. era are not accurate at best, and unknown or made up at worst) are not going to think too much about how Lucas Oil compares wit previous decades of paid attendance 2) people who do know a little bit about DCI attendance history, even just guesstimates of attendance, will know that this attendance figure is likely highest of LOS but likely not as high as other years (like Rose Bowl, maybe?). I think simple reading comprehension + deductive reasoning should suffice for anyone not wanting to make a big deal over literally nothing. I know the US education system is not great, and we're working on improving it via stressing problem solving and deductive reasoning skills, but this is really not difficult unless one is really being super overly critical. I'm not writing this in an attempt to be passive-aggressive jerk, I'm trying to be as blunt and matter-of-fact as possible. I think this press release is fine, not misleading or confusing, and I can't fathom that we're still trying to pick this press release apart as if DCI has lied on tax documents or something

Thanks Scott, I just checked that too. Here's the list in what would be current seeding order:

Though only second hand knowledge, I was told that just after the end of the 2013 season, the corps was out of debt for the first time in decades. My source was in a position to know that as fact. I have no reason to doubt his honesty. I would have to know much more about why they need money before I would donate.

Tell DCI, then. They are the ones who use the language about "record-setting", which renders the whole era 1972-present pertinent to the conversation.

with judges having the ability to go back and adjust scores, performance order is less and less of a concern every day

yep. what a boring world we would live in if designers in any medium had that antiquated and reductionary point of view.

Having spoken to a friend/fraternity brother who has been on BD staff for a few years now, I can contribute this to the conversation. When designing the show, the BD staff loves to leave things open for interpretation. Yes, they do have a set storyline that they emphasize, but their main point in designing the show is to make the viewer want more. To see more, to hear more, to understand more. Thus their complicated themes and their wide field placement while doing many different visuals at a time. They want people to feel inclined to watch their performance again, whether it be at a future show or on video. It's similar to how some of the best movies have to be watched multiple times in order to catch everything. The main theme of the show is presented for the audience to enjoy and the judges to... well, judge. However, they add so many layers to it as a kind of reward for repeated viewings. There is a huge amount of artistic development that goes into the shows, and part of it is to make you want more. After all, the shows you remember the most are the ones you view most often. That's how BD, Crown, Cadets, Bluecoats, Madison, Cavaliers, Phantom, etc. have all remained near the top for all of these years. One part of watching/listening to a show from the past is enjoying the music or visuals; another equally important part is watching/listening for something you didn't quite catch before that adds to the excitement. Just my two cents.

Not to mention he was a great pitcher....oh....never mind.

Well, it's flawed, as Because not only worked, it worked very well.

I hope everyone who attended the show had a great time. The outcome exceeded all of our expectations! It was a wonderful night of entertainment. Next year will be even bigger and better!!!!

Thanks for confirming that. Thunderbirds aren't listed on DCA's schedule for the 29th.

Tressona

Since this years iteration of this fun hasn't started yet. For sale: Several European designer brand bags. Ideal for your post finals shopping. Contact Phantom Regiment. Free: Several woman shaped cutouts. You'll find them outside the Madison Scouts office. Just take them, we don't know want to know. Available: Plus sized paper planes. Great for disrupting that first day of school coming up. Text Crossmen to make an offer.

Common sense should dictate that the corps who wins on Saturday night at finals should ALWAYS be awarded the DCI Championship. If you can't win the big show, you don't deserve the big trophy.

JesusChrist Give it a rest. Blue devils won stop trying to take it away.

since there is no possible way to know who will end up where i'll just random.org it. 1, Vanguard Cadets 2, Colts 3, Pioneer 4, Gold 5, Blue Knights 6, Troopers 7, Genesis 8, Phantom Regiment 9, Cadets 10, Boston Crusaders 11, Colt Cadets 12, Racine Scouts - 13, 7th Regiment 14, Legends 15, Spirit of Atlanta 16, Pacific Crest 17, Blue Saints 18, Cascades 19, Cavaliers 20, Crossmen 21, Madison Scouts 22, Mandarins 23, Les Stentors 24, Blue Devils 25, Spartans - 26, Oregon Crusaders 27, Music City 28, Jersey Surf 29, Bluecoats 30, Academy 31, River City Rhythm 32, Raiders 33, Blue Stars 34, Carolina Crown 35, Santa Clara Vanguard 36, Blue Devils B Random.org predicts an interesting season.

I assure you that they are just as competitive as other corps, they simply are hindered by their decision to keep the corps accessible, therefore sacrificing early season rehearsals. As far as making the cut for Friday, this is the first time since they moved to World Class that they haven't done so, so I am not sure where that came from. I guarantee those kids are heartbroken (or at least were last night, I just saw a video of the run they did today and it seemed like they were just fine) but they will move on.