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I still maintain what I mentioned back in the season. I personally found the treatments of "Polyushke-Polye" (more familiar to American musicians as "Meadowlands") to be joltingly refreshing and new...especially in the harmonic treatment. Those two treatments, and those two alone, qualified the show as "innovative" and refreshing in my mind -- if from nothing else, a musical effect point of view. It takes a lot to open my eyes in terms of music...and in a span of just over a minute, my eyes popped open twice (and both with a "WTF??" question on my mind, and a huge smile on my face.). And for me personally, that says a lot.

Garfield, it pains me to point out that Aristotle was a Greek, and marched in the fourth century BC. The Greeks were basically G7 until about the first or second century AD, long after Aristotle aged out. They then dropped to open class for the next couple millennia. Now, the Romans were medaling until about 400AD, before going inactive due to poor management and Huns.

Maybe saying that it was a waste of the member's talents is not the most tactful way of presenting a critique on the show? Just maybe.

Maybe...maybe not. But I, for one, found your response to be both rather presumptuous (in your apparent inference that he hadn't seen an actual live show) AND unfair of frachel's well-considered and well thought out question (and one in which he was responsible enough to actually research, timing and citing present/past shows with actual stopwatch in hand).

What an idiotic response. Maybe I went to 5 live shows this year and go to a few each year for the past 25+ years and maybe that has nothing to do with the question.

I guess with the high velocity, we can say they'll be Russian around the field.

A few of my drum corps friends give me crap because I remember alot from that time. Not sure why because my wife will tell me something and I will forget it 5 minutes later. The only explanation I have is that those were the best times of my childhood and I choose to remember those times.

..and I don't see BD as being that new either.... Especially if one looks to Winter Guard or even Marching Band. Sorry, excellence in performance is where it's at for them too. Otherwise, it's borrow from WGI or Cirque, which people go gaga over...

Oh god, I hope not. I haven't gotten a chance to enjoy winter yet!

You'd think they'd understand it after it's explained to them the first 30 times.

No, sorry ,as I said insane tosses are a fraction of what is scored and how including programming and the who and what. You may not understand that .You will see IF you make the corps you are auditioning for.

During the 2010 season, people were saying that Phantom's show had no deaths, to which I replied that, on the contrary, they killed off the entire corps. (Edited to fix typo.)

<rant> Honestly telling me that there is a big announcement and then not saying anything about it shortly thereafter is ########...lol...My opinion is don't bother announcing to the world publicly in the first place unless you are prepared to follow up with the news in a timely manner...SERIOUSLY a great big waste of time even reading it! </rant>

not playing the music of "dead white guys" said director of the corps currently being discussed

They'd all be from the South, I'd wager. Mike

That's a good point. It's less often corps staff than corps fans who get all prickly in the forums. (A notable exception this year was the director of an Open Class corps who posted to that forum about halfway through the season, rather more defensively than was needed.) But those fans can indeed be very quick to be outraged. This is true for all corps, I guess, but since Boston's show had my favorite design in 2014, I posted more to the Boston thread than to those for most other corps, and that's where I was likeliest to encounter umbrage. Some highly-devoted Boston fans bristled whenever my comments included less than absolute praise, or so it seemed to me.

The Cadets honestly have one of the most consistently good colorguards of this decade and with a bigger guard who's to say they can't win it. (I do love how some people act like its blasphemy to suggest cadets winning guard)

Both of the DCA corps I marched with we generally set drill on concrete and once drill was set we quickly moved to grass because its a known fact that grass is easier on the ankles and knees.

There's a lot more to the show than that. Sure the show's not your cup of tea, but you sound like you're taking it too personal. If you pay attention you can see the Animal Farm story line, from the beginning chaotic uprising to the Beast of England anthem hints and reoccurring windmill imagery, to the pig's corruption of power and Boxer's death, and lastly to the dark and political ending. If I need to lay it out even more for you to figure it out I don't mind.

Your statement is completely irrelevant, you just throw a whole bunch of random insults in and it really is pathetic, who gave you the right to talk down/belittle/insult the BAC membership. (And when did they use smoke and mirrors do enlighten me oh smart one)

So it's a show about the concept of Animal Farm, so the guard acts foolish wish masks on, they hint at baby powder, the make a G7 making a reference as to that being an evil empire and that means the concept was well designed and cohesive. Once again, it's self-serving smoke and mirrors crap, and not at an elite level either.

IF they just combined the WGI World Class equipment and movement sheets into a single guard sheet, I think the caption would correctly credit "the what" and "the how" and would leave out all the effect and design elements which are properly GE and ENS. IMO the sheet as written is simply an invitation for guard judges to promote themselves to GE judge #3 and -- sadly -- there are only a handful of judges who seem to be able to resist the urge to go there (shocking I know). I agree there's FAR MORE to "hard" than rotations in a toss (just as there's far more to playing a trumpet than hitting a triple C). But I'd like to see the caption focused on the performers and not the designers. IMO the current sheets fail in that regard. Guard is NOT like the other captions. A brass line or drum line can outperform the show as a whole. What those performers accomplished *in that caption* is credited. And the reverse is true as well: A trumpet line may (by sheer chance) all have 10+ years of formal dance training. They put their horns down and partner dance with the guard with amazing skill and grace. It's the GE moment of the show. Will the Brass judge credit the dancing? Absolutely not. Flip this example and guard contribution on trumpets will absolutely be credited by the guard judge. It's effective and appropriate and "good". As for judges knowing when guards are "playing it safe" , I disagree. I think too many guard judges are perfectly content to reward safe and clean.

To be honest, I had high hopes for this program. Unfortunately, the Animal Farm show seemed to lack any sort of clear definition in show design. It also came off incredibly pretentious and self-serving, which I find pretty pathetic. The whole baby powder thing was, mildly comical, but again, pretty self-serving. It almost seemed like they were saying here's our concept, and if you get it, great, if you don't, we don't care, and if people for some bizarre reason believe that that would make them seem deep, inciteful, innovative, well, that's crazy thinking too. Granted, BD's Dada show may be considered along those types of lines, but that concept actually worked because it lived the concept. Animal Farm, not so much. Here's to hoping they get over themselves in 2015.

I fully agree, Guard. Controversy, and discussing controversy, takes thinking. And progress can only happen while utilizing one's brainpan. Therefore, it could be said that in many ways, it is through controversy that progress can be accomplished. Not the sole reason or way, most certainly. But it does play a role.

Oh, the Colorado stuff does have its' advantages...at least from the standpoint of sound. For some reason, it always makes the Sops sound higher to my ears. In fact, everything seems higher.

I feel like this is a common misconception in drum corps...... those runs are written "smarter" but at the same time more people are playing the full run or part. It's actually way harder to trade 16th notes than it would be to learn a full three or four measures of a run. and you're right people play less during the show now but they also do WAYYYYY more in show than ever before. When I write shows I try to make sure the winds are only playing about 6:30-7:30 of a ten minute book and only about 5:00-6:00 of a 8 minute band show. People just don't have the iron lips that they once had but at the same time there isn't a need for more brass playing.

Apologies for coming across like that post was singling you out. It was a knee-jerk reaction to the ever-increasing sensitivity of some folks on this forum who perceive anything less than 100% adulation for the Cadets to be 'hating on them'. Yes, it's very difficult nowadays for a drum corps show to be wholly unique and ground-breaking. With staff members taking part in high school and college programs, along with WGI and the like, the influences all start to meld together. That said, I'm not exposed to high school programs or WGI, so drum corps is it for me. I'm not going to cross-reference the top 12 with every other marching program in the nation to ensure what they're doing has never been done before so I can safely apply the label of "unique" to what I'm seeing. Maybe my standards and expectations of them are too high. I'll certainly allow for that. Maybe the characteristics I ascribed to them 20 years ago weren't really there, or weren't there to the degree I then thought they were. It's all certainly possible. But the Cadets are nothing if not scrappy. They are fully capable of putting me in my place and taking this concept in a direction I couldn't have imagined.

play difficult music cleanly = win brass play difficult beats cleanly = win perc spin/dance difficult book cleanly = win guard....NOT DCI really does need to make that caption JUST about the performers. there are already GE and ENS judges on judging panels. please make the guard caption about the WGI downstairs captions. FIX THE SHEETS </end rant>

That's sounds like somebody I know too.

I don't care about unique. It's all been done somewhere before. Well, until we get some jetpacks or something. Tired of the unique requirement that produces BORING.

The term innovative seems to have varied meanings on this board, so I wouldn't take too much stock into what others do or don't consider innovative. Some people seem to mistake it for "invention". Anyway, I like the concept. Can't wait to see it on the field.

I didn't realize I was challenging anyone's opinions as if they were "wrong." I'm just asking questions because I'm trying to understand what people expect when they say they want the Cadets to be unique and groundbreaking. There has to be a standard to which they are basing their expectations, and that's all I'm trying to figure out. Thanks for your reply, though. I suppose the 2005 show seemed new in the context of DCI, but there were many elements of that show which had been explored before in the marching band world and in the indoor WGI world, so I guess all I saw it as was a really cool drum corps show that was definitely a bit of a departure from what the Cadets had been doing up to that point, but nothing that I felt was all that original. To each their own, I guess. (I don't recall-- did that show incorporate original music? Was is the same kind of original music in the form that the Cavaliers had been exploring from 2001-2003-ish, as in completely original music that never existed before? I don't believe so, but I could be wrong.) For the record, I haven't offered a single opinion about what I think about this particular show announcement, so I'm not sure why you're directing the whole "fawning over the announcement sufficiently enough" crap my way. It really makes no difference to me either way if you love this show announcement or hate it. But since you bring up the Blue Devils as being the corps who you believe is pushing the activity in new directions, and you feel saddened because the Cadets are no longer in that role, would you prefer it if the Cadets programmed shows more like the Blue Devils? Does that type of show fit the mold of what people expect (and want) from the Cadets? If not, what other kinds of new directions do you think they could push the activity that we haven't seen or heard before? It seems to me that the group you hold as the standard for pushing the boundaries are pushing it into areas that many people around here are not always happy with when it comes to entertainment value, so this is where I struggle to discern what people really want from the Cadets. It seems to me that they want the Cadets to be the way they used to be. Faster, higher, more intense. Exhilirating in a way like no other corps. But is that something that would break new ground or push the activity into new areas in 2015? Hasn't the activity caught up to that a long time ago? And if pushing the boundaries means being more like the Blue Devils (where there is risk of the public not going along for the ride -- an opinion I recognize but don't agree with, as I've really enjoyed the Blue Devils in recent years), wouldn't a more traditional Cadets presentation of "faster, higher, more intense" actually stand out as something unique in a competitive arena where everyone else is trying to be like the Blue Devils? I don't have any answers to these questions, and I'm not trying to challenge anyone's opinions as being right or wrong. Just offering some food for thought.

I remember Maurice Chevalier but don`t remember details of drum corps in the 1970`s, let alone yesterday. We`ll leave remembering up to Keith and his acute memory. My drum corps stuff was stored in a garage for 30 years until 2007. I scan when I can and post on DCP. My scrapbook paper started disintegrating; the button collection is pristine. We get six months of snow and the garage isn`t heated. Maybe my stuff was frozen in time and should not have been brought inside. Music makes me remember that moment in time so long ago.

Which only goes to serve as an example for one simple message: controversial doesn't always mean "wrong." Sometimes, it only serves as an example of what, across sociological and philosophical lines, is regarded as being "different." Too many times we take a "controversial" move or message and turn it into a right vs. wrong issue -- when all we are actually seeing is something which is new, "innovative," or simply unexpected. One person's "throwing babies" will undoubtedly be another person's "throwing horses***." I dearly wish that reality didn't operate that way -- but sadly, it does.

As Maurice Chevalier once said....... "I remember it well!" I bought my share of buttons at good ol' Warren Harding High School Stadium. And the 1973 finals downpour ruined a couple in my collection with rust spots.

Taking into account the current rules of the activity, what exactly would constitute something being considered "original" and/or "groundbreaking" in the activity in 2015 that we haven't already seen before in one form or another, either in the drum corps activity itself, or in the indoor ranks, or in marching band? What do people honestly expect from the Cadets (moreso than other groups for some reason) that would fall under the category of being truly original or groundbreaking?

And here I thought that the "X" meant that we were in for a montage of music from such films as "Deep Throat," "Debby Does Dallas," and "Midnight Cowboy." Guess not....

'I would rather entertain and hope that people learned something than educate people and hope they were entertained.' (Walt Disney) 'I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.' (John Cage - Composer) 'When I grew up, what was interesting for me was that music was color and life was gray. So music for me has always been more than entertainment' (Pete Townshend - Musician) 'I believe entertainment can aspire to be art, and can become art, but if you set out to make art you're an idiot.' (Steve Martin - Comedian) 'I work hard for the audience. It's entertainment. I don't need validation.' (Denzel Washington - Actor) 'At its best, entertainment is going to be a subjective thing that can't win for everyone, while at worst, a particular game just becomes a random symbol for petty tribal behavior.' (John Carmack - Scientist) 'The entertainment is in the presentation.' (John McTiernan - Director) 'Art is difficult. It's not entertainment.' (Anselm Keifer - Artist) 'I'm kind of big on performance in general. I like the sort of entertainment where you can go in and be fully immersed in it'. (Erin Morgenstern _ Writer) 'Maybe entertainment is not supposed to be reality.' (Victoria Jackson - Comedienne) No point to make here, just some alternative views lest we become too intellectual!

I find this point very interesting! One thing I'd like to ask is, What's wrong with being a spectacle as long as your organization brings joy to audiences and amazing life experiences for your members? After their America show, which I'm sure was emotionally and creatively taxing for the staff, then what's wrong with sacrificing some of their aesthetic sensibilities for a year? After all, the debate over whether drum corps is a sport or an art keeps coming up. Regardless of the answer, there's a blurred line there.... and sports have no concern with aesthetics. So I'd say drum corps have a choice between spectacle and aesthetics each year, and based on our opinions and our own aesthetic values, we can decide whether we enjoy the show or not.

I feel like doing what Juliet did at the end of their show this year...

No Brent, Thank You! Just really still bitter about loosing to you in 1985 (after beating you ALL season). I also still tease my Trooper friends about them beating us after we beat them ALL season. In retrospect, the only thing about Velvet Knights 1985 that was truly great was our 8th place drum-line. Visually we were a disaster and I would have loved to have your 1985 horn-line.

From everything I've read here about the man, you could've played it at his gravesite and his ghost would've appeared saying " Are you &^#$@ing me?"

I think I said what needed to be said way back on page 4 of this thread but then the thought came into my mind after reading all these posts. Fran is right - Mello charts from hell played like nobody's business. Respighi / Zingali - seamless, shameless, breathtaking! But then I got to the "politics" thing. HeH-HeH! I thought we all gave up smoking that stuff years ago! If anything, (and only IMHO, BTW) it was politics that kept Star from sweeping '90 through '93! I mean, if I needed an excuse, that is. Back to topic: Star's show in '91 was the one that won because: "My God, man, they were total! Puppet

I competed againt Star all year in '90. They were PHENOMENAL all season long, and a joy to watch (at least from the starting gate!). They kicked our *** fair and square, right up to DCS Birmingham (Burningman). HOT day! 132 on the turf! Try doing that show in ole' skool wool unis! We found our stride after that show and were undefeated after that. BUT, if Star had won, I could live with that. Their horn line was unbelievable...I would love a time machine to go back to see that live again! The drum line was small because they had a couple of cats walk out one day early season. They were LOUD with 5 snares! They beat the living pi** out of those heads that year!

You know, how in the world could Star be behind Phantom in visual and in 3rd??? Then in 1992, Blue Devils top Star in visual??? and in 1993, phantom tops star in visual again??? IMO, that is just appalling. I loved Phantom back then and BD too, but to say they were better visually is laughable.

RIGHT ON, Fran! I listen to all my DCI era recordings during my work day (at home) and in all the live and recorded performances I have heard that was my favortie mello and mid horn section performance ever. I shout out to many of the Garfeld\CB\HNC\Cadets shows, but for me STAR 1991 was Mid-Horn Excellence!

It's because of these years of DCI, that I curse my parents not for having me 5-6 years earlier. But then (in my little mind) the sky opened up... and Star of Indiana Alumni Corps fell from the heavens for a one time gig. Double knot your shoes and break out your MP3 recorders as we are going to try our best not to suck.

Funny, I always claim that Star should have won 1990 - 1993, I thought they pulled out the shocker in 90, but God forbid, 92..they were hosed and 93, I can see why Cadets won but thought for sure Star was going to take it. G

This is one of my all-time favorite shows. Being a guard chick, I hardly ever notice the drumline (no offense but my eyes follow the guard typically) but for this show... the drumline caught my attention. Wow! That was my rookie year in drum corps and I always loved going to watch SCV. :)

Few stories Ive heard about that year.... In the DVD, I am to understand (I havent yet seen it myself) that during a snare roll, you can see one of the snare drummers roll their ankle. Doing that, he fractured his ankle, and if you listen to the rest of that roll, its dead clean. He marched the rest of the show that night on a broken ankle, and still played the **** out of it. Second, in the percussion tape for that year, at the end of the show, the judge is telling them his final comments (you guys are great, flibbity fliabbity floop...), and in the middle of his enthusiasm, the corps then pulls the aforementioned communist flag across the field (this is 1991..). The judge stops mid sentence, pauses for a few seconds, and then says "Thats completely inappropriate" and immediately clicks off the tape.