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So who gets to count the guy who was in both BD and Boston, or does he count as 1/2 an ageout in each? 😁 Apparently the story with that is (and you can see him in a Boston uniform in the BD ageout picture) he was an alternate with BD all season. Boston had a mellophone hole, I'm assuming late season, and BD sent him over to them. So Boston didn't have to do their final shows with a hole and the guy got to perform on the field for championship week - a win/win for everybody, and just a pretty cool thing.

I've hit the rite of passage for DCI fans- writing a lengthy paragraph about which shows were good and which ones weren't. But in the true Orwellian Wiress spirit, I turned it into narration and put music over it. Ignore the unrelated video game footage. It's just there for the people that want to have something visually stimulating while they hear an overhyped synth kid explain how sick beats and flowers are actually a metaphor for society itself. Rose Bowl shows (BD, Mandarins, PC, Academy, BK) Big Loud and Live (everything else) Thoughts? Feedback? Any shows I missed that you want my unqualified two cents on?

Well said! Your comment will fall on deaf ears to some, because they will die on the hill believing in the BD rinse and repeat narrative, but nonetheless your comment is straight facts!

I think Blue Devils made a shift in programming after all the criticism they received or viewed when they did shows like 2008, 2010, 2012, 2013. On DCP alone there were many who felt they were not entertaining and just trying to write to the sheets and win. To me this was not true but I remember fans on DCP and elsewhere constantly complaining about their shows not being for the crowd. Now that BD is more fan friendly fans want more innovation. Personally I still find an "air" of freshness to their shows. Their style is still unique in the activity. It may not be new to them but it is unique in the activity. There is no rule stating that if you win and win a lot that you must take the greatest risks and push the activity somewhere new. In the 1980s the Garfield Cadets were often cited for innovations. They certainly were at the cusp of change, but those changes were things like taking asymmetrical drill to new levels, getting rid of the concert number, starting a show with a ballad (1984), some harder drill, flexing intervals, and things of that nature. By the late 80s and through the 90s what did they change? I think the shows just became more fast paced and more demanding but I think their unique style was still in tact. They were not reinventing the wheel every year. This was true in the first decade of the 2000s as well. Did it stagnate at some point? Yes, but not until 2002-2003...and then they tried something a little new in 2004 and again in 2005. But what was different? A baton twirler? A uniform change? A use of a box in the middle of the field? They were still marching high-velocity drill in a style and manner that they employed in the 1980s. The music was still exciting with lots of mellophone runs. You still new it was Cadets. I don't think Blue Devils feel this formula and unique style of theirs has stagnated yet. To me the 2023 show was still pretty fresh and entertaining. The concept was a wonderful idea. When I address their formula I am referring to shows designed from 2014 to now. Their are similarities with 2008-2013, but that minimizes changes they have made. Their 2014 show felt very different to 2013. The 2015 show which was even more theatrical. To compare 2015 to 2017 also shows vast differences. The way they handled old-school vs new-school corps identity in the 2017 show is completely different from anything we'd seen. Their use of props in 2019 was wild and wonderfully creative. People love to say they just Rinse and Repeat but really that is not true and not even close to what they have been doing. There is more to the Blue Devils than meets the eye.

[Darn DCP restrictions -- can't post FB links or upload photos. If someone can help out, I'd be greatly appreciative.] On FB, Matt Harloff posted a touching pic and post of Freddy Martin and him holding the 2023 Jim Ott award. Matt says this was Freddy's first Ott award he helped earn and it was as part of the Crown staff. Thank you Freddy and Matt!

Madison needs a show that knows what it wants to be and communicates that to the audience--whatever the style may be. I love the old school Madison attitude as that's what I marched. But they don't need to do that succeed, they just need a well constructed product that the kids buy into and sell.

Hopefully they don’t change too much! My favorite BD show in over 10 years.

For us older alums, especially the Stewart years, it isn’t so much “winning a title” or even competing for a title even though being in that 6th-place zone puts you in striking distance. It’s more about being competitively relevant. It’s about having that swagger. It’s having show designs that elicit the raw, emotional excitement bursts from the crowd. It’s about once again being the general fan favorite, the rock stars that rolled into the lot blasting music out of the windows and flying the Jolly Roger flag, announcing The Scouts had arrived. It’s about the crowd roaring in excitement before a single note was played. Scouts had that “it” factor that made it a destination corps for kids all over the world, not a stepping stone to the top tier. Us DCI dinosaurs understand times have changed in show design and don’t expect the 1988-2000s uniform, G bugles and other throwback esthetics. But we’ve seen what Cavies drums pulled off this year. We’ve seen Downside Up and a horn book and swagger from Coats that was absolutely Madisonesque. Many corps that were small timers back then have passed the Scouts while most of the other big timers from back then are still relevant. We just want Madison to back in that club.

I highly suggest you watch BD’s encore performance video uploaded to their YouTube channel to allow yourself to correct your grossly misinformed and incorrect assertions. Or don’t. DCP this season has taught me that it’s sometimes better to let people just be wrong

Phantom hasn't killed off anyone in a while, I think it's time for the comeback. Boston has been outdoing them in this department for a few years

Great post and very true. In the 1970s they were a consistently higher-placing corps. In the 1980s and 90s they had their moments of top 5. I want to say off the top of my head 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 88 are all top 5 shows in the 1980s. In the 1990s I think 92, 95 and 97 are top 5. They had 6 top 5 finishes in the 70s. So that's 15 top 5 finishes from 1972 to 1999. Not bad. But I will echo what @Swmstom1998 stated. Madison was never really in it to win it. Often their staff did not go to critique. What they were was one killer entertaining corps. From the 70s-90s no corps -- and I mean no corps -- could string together entertaining shows and audience response within a show the way the Scouts could. Not Phantom, Cavaliers, Garifled, BD or SCV. Maybe VK for a while? When it comes to looking back at the sheer number of shows they produced in those almost 30 years and the level of audience response and spontaneous standing ovations there was no corps that could light-up the house quite like the Scouts. That swagger, power, showmanship and fantastic music is what people miss. Not the scores. But those kind of shows were more difficult than many might think. In the famous 1988 or 1995 shows Scouts had a brass line that rivaled BD. They actually tied BD and Cadets in 95. It took that kind of talent to pull off that kind of brass book. Wayne Downey of BD discusses this in a video series that BD staff did during the pandemic. He mentions how Madison were the brass kings of the 70s until BD began to challenge them. Those old books required numerous sopranos (now trumpets) that could play in a wide range and with power. Mellos had to have killer chops. Their tubas and baritones were super strong and also had a wide tessatura of range and power. Most players seemed to really understand jazz and swing and latin. They often had soloists that rivaled anyone. This is the part that, until they can really recruit the more experienced players, they will struggle with. So the music book has to be different and playable for now until they begin getting more experience. But you have to start somewhere and I always wish them the best. Do what is right for the members. Program a good, solid show that works. A show that can be cleaned. Then see how far you can take it while maxing out the cleanliness.

I do think this is a very good point. I know everyone wants to see old Madison Scouts back in action. But the job of a good design team and teaching staff is not to write that kind of show if the members cannot handle it. You have to write to the talents you have. Madison actually had some good brass and percussion musicians this summer. The visual book was overwritten and did not work that well with the music. The prop did not work. The guard book was too far behind by the time they finished learning the full show. They have to do a better job of getting a show on the field that can be performed at a decent level so they have a chance to clean while also making changes. Age and experience is what it is. They need a show that is well crafted, can be fully taught at camp, and one that meets the talent and experience level of the members. Then they can clean, tweak, and layer from there. The theme or concept of the show needs to be obvious and easy to understand.

They just did an in-your-face musical show, coupled with 19th-place visual, an incomprehensible theme and a large cat toy randomly rolling around the field. Maybe the musical show was not the problem.

well, i am officially on the bloo24 waiting list. i already am getting a little anxious, auditions are always scary, but ive got a senior year high school band season to worry about first. i am beyond stokes to hear and see what bloo has in store for this season, and am ready to embrace it fully, wether that is on through a screen, or on the field. until next season, dcp, thanks for sharing such an unforgettable season with me 🫡

Hello, making my obligatory first post in this thread. As for 2024, unknown right now as to whether I will drive again or not but I can say that the corps was supported in 2023 by some of the best ###### drivers that I've worked with in some time. I hope that everyone who was involved in 2023 returns in 2024 and they build further on the foundation that has been strengthened over the past few years. As for me, I will still love them as I have for many years even though I am becoming an even more rounded drum corps fan.

I haven't seen it mentioned, did you notice the DCI World Championships banner did not have a year, 2023? Just the name of the event. ++++ I'd also like to know what people had as their favorite/best uniform. Make separate lists for marchers color guard if you wish. Color Guard - Blue Devils. I like that they created a uni which makes the women look female and the males look masculine, that's hard to do. I hate when corps put a frilly dress on a CG male and make him look feminine. Marchers, traditional - Cavaliers, Scouts. Both had a modern and clean visual effect on the field with a distinct connect to their roots. Marchers, non-traditional - By far Bloo. I usually hate green based uni's on a green football field but Bloo's use of color made formations easy to read. Blue Devils were also innovative with the pink sash early in the show somehow changing to the red based dual sashes later. Very visually effective and blended in perfectly with the show design and progression of the cutouts theme.

Sagan has been done before, per Crossmen 1992 Show: "Songs For Planet Earth". A BD version could be called "Pale Blue Dot", after the Sagan speech. Repertoire would probably include the likes of David Bowie - Space Oddity, Peter Schilling - Major Tom, and (keeping with anime) Makoto Fujiwara - Opening Theme to Macross

Agree. What a fantastic show it was in 2023.! ... and likely the Boston Crusaders will have a fantastic show again in 2024 to bring to the field . In less than 48 hours after the Boston Crusaders Finals Performance was performed and linked on YouTube, it received 24,000 views via 2 videos of that Finals performance. That alone speaks volumes on how amazingly well received their 2023 show production was received by audiences this summer.👍

or 1995?

I believe they said 76 at the DCI West BBQ. If not, it’s definitely in the high 70s.

Madison doesn't need to try to be a top 4 corps. They won't be scored such and they don't have the talent to pull off that demand. First goal should be challenging for that 12th spot. On the field, I'd look to Spirit and Pacific Crest for inspiration. Both have solid design teams that know what they want to get across, and pretty much Stick to the Plan. If you want to be the "in your face" corps, that's absolutely still possible - I'd argue Troopers had one of the more aggressive brass books in the business this year - but you have to have a visual program to complement it. They're just not going to move up in the ranks otherwise. Anyways, my "if I were director for a day" advice would be to get everyone on board with what Madison is going to be, over-invest in visual staff and Stick to the Plan. Mike

Thanks brother! Mandarins are on a mission for 2024. They got a small taste of what it's like to compete for top five, and based off what my son has been telling me, they want the full course meal now, and 2024s motivator is "Unfinished Business." This century, we have seen the rise of Crown, Bloo, BAC. We could be on the cusp of adding the Mandarins to that list.

That "in your face" style of drumcorp is over. It's all about "production". You look at the top 4 and these guys had a very different style.

It was clearly not a formally judged Year, but in my opinion the overall look and swagger of the corps was great in 2021 and was definitely well received. I think they should have stayed on that course for a 3 year stint and after 3 decide /assess where things are at.

Nice list. ‘\\\ were also undefeated (7-0) vs. Blue Stars in 2023. Understandably not included in your list due to Blue Stars placing 11th and the point spread between the two, it was only three seasons ago, on 7/10/2018, that ‘\\\ outscored Blue Stars for the first time in World Class. And, with Blue Stars outscoring ‘\\\ the next 28 times (1-9 in 2018, 0-11 in 2019, 0-8 in 2022) and placing ahead those three years (8th, 8th, 7th), the 2023 head-to-head is noteworthy. Correction: ‘\\\ outscored Cadets for the first time in World Class before 2023, on 7/24/2019. See https://www.dci.org/scores/final-scores/2019-dci-southern-mississippi

We did drown the entire corps in 18

I started following DCI in 2002, so I've only ever known Madison to be in the sub-6th range. Because they'd won championships in the past, and based on how passionately folks here tend to speak of those glory years, I assumed they were typically in play to medal or win it all most years. So I went back to 1988, ran some numbers, and...that's not the case: 1988-2002 [the Stewart years], their average score and placement was 91.080 and 6.9th 2003-2006 [the Salas years], they averaged 90.263 and 7.8th 2007-2009 [Spanos?] was 83.158 and 14th 2010-2014 [Komnick w/Mason & Co] was 88.435 and 9.8th place 2015-2023 [Komnick w/o Mason] was 84.443 and 13.9th I don't know what to do with all that, other than I guess I was surprised that with the exception of 2005, 1995, and 1988, they've consistently lived in that 6th-8th range. And it's been 22 years since they really were locked in to the 5th-7th. Don't get me wrong, I want Madison back in Finals, but knowing this, there's really only a gap to close of 4pts to get them back in, and 6pts to get back to 6th-8th range. Not nearly as dramatic as I let myself be led to believe. So...how to close 4-6pts?

Looking for spoons for your 900 ft tall baby? Call 1-800-BLU-STRS Need a squirrel proof spinning jumbo sized suet holder for your bird feeder? Get yourself to the store in Sacramento while supplies last, only 7 left!

Oh yes. I started doing repairs in 1993, tried to make my way in the world as a pro player in 95 through 97 and realized that much like being in a top 3 corps, there's pro level and then there's elite level. I started breaking down cues that people brought me that couldn't be repaired and 30 years later, I build cues for players and send them all over the US and a few overseas. It's good fun. Grounds me.

DCA, WGI and the like. Key in some listening and study of things drum corps wise that aren't in your wheelhouse. Right now I am watching a lot of guard stuff just trying to isolate the skillset from a watchers perspective. As a drummer I never really learned to appreciate guard work. As a drummer I never delved deep into brass. Learning things always settles my anxiety. I also use this time to really start digging into some of my more difficult pool cue builds. Late summer is the best time to turn exotic woods over and start making bigger cuts.

Really cool that you did these and shared them with us. Your takes are heartfelt and honest and show your love and passion for the activity. If drum corps is to have a future, it needs fans like you. I missed your voice during much of the season and was very happy when you resurfaced. Of course, if you didn’t have access to Flo you wouldn’t have had access to see shows other than scouring YouTube between when the tour left SoCal and Big Loud and Live. Have a great offseason and look forward to seeing you and everyone else on here next year. But don’t sleep on the Cadets! 😂

If you haven't seen it, check out BDs 2000 show "Methods of Madness.

Not a child of the 70s huh?

For real. Each could have probably ordered 5 times the number they needed and sold them out at the souvie stands over the tour.

I'll be blunt. The legacy base is aging and dying. The people who attend are mainly Family and aging alumni of the show host. Williamsport is the only exception. After what I was told happened there this year, it unfortunately appears snakebit and I'm glad I stayed at home working on my models and resting. I was reminded also that the stadium STILL is missing simple amenities like rails on the steps. It was bad enough for me when I was "healthier", but I sometimes need them after my health issues. And I'm better off and a lot younger than a lot of the attendees. We're lucky someone hasn't taken a serious tumble. I'm stunned that it meets ADA requirements and that someone hasn't forced the issue. Championships are far away from most of the base. It's a major effort to drive there except for possibly the White Sabers and Rogue's Hollow. And then, folks wonder why the attendance has suffered. The move to Indy is a move that actually makes sense for different reasons for different people. Maybe there, they find a new, younger fan base that will. re-energize things. DCA isn't really all-age anymore, unless folks watch the Mini-Corps or I and E. The visual book has become too physically demanding for anyone other than young folks. They've forced themselves away from that demographic unless the individual is ridiculously fit. Maybe because the move makes all of the Legacy corps in Jersey and PA have to actually spend money to travel to championships, it levels the playing field as some here have begged for years. It might kill off some Corps- but that remains to be seen, and things have arrived at a point they have to try something. Add to this the nasty stew of the season schedule. Look, many of us get that the complexity of the shows have increased. No one wants to remain in the basement because of weak design. It used to be that the first show was an exhibition on Memorial Day and Clifton on the first weekend of June. Then things started to compress down to Mid-June, now I sit at Hempfield and see a lot of half-baked bread in Mid-July. I suggested and implied a while ago here that DCA was narrowing itself down to a 4-5 if that week season and was pooh-poohed by someone then on staff with one of the corps and they said it was unviable. Guess what!? Do the math my friend! What was termed unviable is on the doorstep unless there's a serious and real commitment to be ready in Mid-June. There are all sorts of reasons or excuses everyone has for not being ready by mid-July right now. Indoor taking priority with Guard and Percussion members for instance. Okay. At least when they show up, they're combat ready. At least get the drill down and book complete for the Brass when the guard and percussion appear. The Bucs get it done. So do the Cabs and Bush this season, though Bush appeared very rushed on their end. Why can't anyone else get it done? I hear the reasons, I try to be understanding, but it sounds more like excuses as time goes on. That bothers me, but I've been trying to listen, be patient, and hope to see that things improve. They haven't in this regard. Thinking about this more.... the fact that there seems to be little or no accommodation between Indoor units and the DCA corps is telling. I've thought that the DCA teams for some time need to have indoor units of serious indoor affiliates so accommodations could be reached, but of course. that gets pooh-poohed by many. I'd like to see DCA survive. I think the whole thing is a last-ditch effort that's been forced on them with no other choices. I hope they make it. There'll have to be some radical re-thinking from many DCA corps, and no more excuses about how things will need to be done to keep the circuit viable. The same old, same old will result in failure. They'll have to stop saying they can't. Or they'll just have to say So Long.

hmn... maybe, but BBB announced they are folding their bedspreads for good.😊

Absolutely. At least entertain us. You can set the world on fire once you've re-won some hearts and minds.

Scott Chandler decides what BD does. Tempus Blue was supposed to be the show in 2020 but you know what happened. So these ideas he has is there.....maybe backed up because of the pandemic. As long as he's BD's artistic director....it's his call.

Opposite. I'd buy PC because one of their weakest sections has Eric Shriver and that man can turn programs around. He did so much with Gold and had a huge rookie group this year. Solid perc can solidify them.

Can we get back on topic! Staff changes...

You got the BD score correct at least

I was thinking about that … Bloo went after Boston on Thursday and Friday and after Crown on Saturday … it really didn’t matter to them … just do your thing and it shouldn’t matter. When I marched in 27th, I didn’t care who we followed.

*note to self..* Buy KFC stock 🤪

Good point, but they haven't always hired from within. Two of their most important instructors right now are Scott Chandler and Todd Ryan. Both are Madison Scouts alumni from the 1970s. Also Michael Cesario has had a hand in the look of BD and some of the ideas behind many shows. See the interview Scott Chandler does with Michael. I actually just posted a link to it on the BD 2024 thread. In the early days of bringing BD to prominence many of their staff were Santa Clara Vanguard alumni. Wayne Downey marched with SCV for a few years and won a ring with them. But you're right in that as the program became so strong with staff and design teams being there for many years it allowed them to train others and pass on the wisdom and experience of how to run things and how to design and teach.

This is true. I did NOT have that in my 2023 Predictions.

Boston will bring another fantastic show to the field, just like they did this year, last year, and many years prior. They are championship caliber. Caption strength is amazing and I do not see that changing.

It's not easy. Right after Finals I always feel like summer ended even though technically summer does not end until September 21 or something like that. I managed to finish all my field charting for other bands and some music arrangements as well. Most of that has to be finished by early to mid July. I continue to gig on the trombone and try to take in as much College Football as I can. I am not as much into the NFL. Only really watch come the playoffs. This is mostly due to the Cleveland Browns having poor management. Fall is great for beautiful weekend drives on the backroads as the leaves change colors and the weather cools. We love finiding neat B&B places and going to neat and small midwest town. We will usually pick 2 or 3 weekends to hit places like Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Lake Chautauqua (NY), and Columbus. My girl loves Musicals, and for me it's all about the Cleveland Orchestra. As we get closer to Thanksgiving and beyond my girl and I head to NYC for a few Broadway shows. Got to see Patrick Page do his last show with Hadestown on December 30 over New Year's weekend last year. Amazing performance and incredible show. Somewhere in there if we get enough snow (usually by mid-to-late December I will go skiing, but usually Ski season in NE Ohio, Upstate NY begins in January.

can I get just get a Mandarins drum line hat?

Brother It just never ends with these people, but i can accept, that's how it is when your at the top, not just drum corps but with anything in life. They are free to please themselves in their own minds, i just won't be joining along with them. Misery likes company, and i won't be apart of theirs... I'll stay on this side with the others who chose to appreciate and enjoys...... Congratulation! to BD for the Elusive Three-Peat